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What Really Happened in Ukraine in 2014
and Since Then

Original Article

Posted By: Jagermeister, 4/14/2022 2:30:50 AM

Pundits skeptical of or even hostile to Ukraine’s cause in its defensive war against Russia have different reasons, or rationalizations, for their views and hail from different points on the political spectrum. But there is one belief that unites nearly all of them: the conviction that Ukraine is not a democracy fighting for its survival but an American “Deep State” project, with a regime installed by a 2014 coup that was led by Ukrainian far-right extremists and backed or even engineered by the U.S. State Department.

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Reply 1 - Posted by: Noj15 4/14/2022 3:06:57 AM (No. 1128070)
We just sent howitzers with 40,000 rounds to Ukraine. The only thing the regime is fighting for is to keep the secrets in Ukraine from the American people. The graft. Corruption. The money laundering. The Biden/DNC/Obama grift. Nothing the media is telling you is true.
50 people like this.

Reply 2 - Posted by: mean Gene 4/14/2022 3:33:18 AM (No. 1128071)
Nuclear Russia, specifically Putin, wants a buffer zone between Russia and NATO aligned nations. But Putin is antagonizing those nations he'd like as the buffer states, Ukraine and Finland. That's just crazy. Perhaps Putin has gone around the bend as he's older and sicker than he once was. But goading him is probably not the right thing to do. A real diplomat might cede him a safe buffer zone instead of inciting him. I hope we will see a post-Putin world, but we won't if we keep poking the bear.
8 people like this.

Reply 3 - Posted by: chumley 4/14/2022 5:33:43 AM (No. 1128091)
Absolutely nothing pushed by the US government or its toadies in the media can be believed. Their first impulse is to lie even if the truth would serve them better. Yes, the Russians are evil, but at least they don't pretend they aren't evil. I honestly dont care who wins this war. Or loses it. We have already lost because of all the American politicians on Ukraine's payroll.
39 people like this.

Reply 4 - Posted by: WhamDBambam 4/14/2022 6:39:21 AM (No. 1128115)
Well, this is from that shining bastion of Conservative Truth, the Bulwark.
14 people like this.

Reply 5 - Posted by: walcb 4/14/2022 7:54:03 AM (No. 1128150)
I read the whole article and know absolutely nothing more than when I started. I am sure there is some pertinent information here but after attempting to read all of the names and groups involved that I had never heard of and can't pronounce and having no idea what is meant by classifying groups in Ukraine as far right or far left, I give up. Sorry, if there is no sexual perversion involved, I am just the typical stupid American who can't understand.
11 people like this.

Reply 6 - Posted by: Venturer 4/14/2022 8:05:46 AM (No. 1128157)
I don't know much about the facts presented here, but I do know that the State department has been needing a good cleansing for a long time.
15 people like this.

Reply 7 - Posted by: Cynical Backstory 4/14/2022 8:34:06 AM (No. 1128183)
Quite a read. I appreciated the information but wonder if it’s truthful or just Ukraine version of truth. It’s so hard to know just how accurate and truthful information is because without a doubt Russia is a lying, manipulative and evil monster. They have been my whole life and I saw the exact same signs in this article as we saw during the times they stirred up other people to hijack airplanes, shoot up olympics and other acts evil to keep the whole world on edge. Oh yes, we know the Russians well and can spot their handiwork behind the scenes. But I’m not impressed with the Ukrainians either. The article showed the Ukrainians being passively being done to and not ever doing anything themselves and I just don’t believe that at all. And Nuland. This article sure tried to whitewash that lying, manipulative, leftist, dishonorable witch. I didn’t buy that whitewash at all. Her two-faced, back-stabbing is impossible to unsee. A pox on her! I’m left with the impression that my original opinion is fairly correct. Leave it to the antagonists, I don’t have a dog in this fight and don’t want to associate with either side. They’re both just gangster-thugs. I just wish my country wasn’t as corrupt and self-serving as these goons are but news out of that country the last ten years or so has shown that America is just as greedy, grasping and corrupt and evil as either one of them. And I really hate that. I wish we could be the good guys again but that’s impossible with the caliber of scum infesting our Deep State isn’t it.
17 people like this.

Reply 8 - Posted by: cThree 4/14/2022 8:35:20 AM (No. 1128187)
It's the Bulwark. I stop reading at the end of the first syllable.
4 people like this.

Reply 9 - Posted by: Krause 4/14/2022 8:43:11 AM (No. 1128197)
Sounds like Nuland is a bit butchy.
7 people like this.

Reply 10 - Posted by: Sanchin 4/14/2022 8:49:53 AM (No. 1128207)
This is Neocon BS and propaganda. The Bulwark is a creation of Bill Kristol who co-founded PNAC with Robert Kagan (Nuland's husband). Krystol, Kagan, are Nuland are happy for any war and to send your sons and daughters off to die for their ideology.
12 people like this.

Reply 11 - Posted by: red1066 4/14/2022 9:01:37 AM (No. 1128219)
I would not be surprised if the CIA or some other secret U.S. government agency was behind whatever happened in Ukraine in 2014. However, the idea that whatever happened was done to install an extreme far right government is a bit hard to believe. Remember who was president in 2014. Obozo might have wanted regime change in Ukraine, but it wouldn't have been to install a far-right regime.
6 people like this.

Reply 12 - Posted by: columba 4/14/2022 9:07:51 AM (No. 1128234)
It's the truth.
0 people like this.

Reply 13 - Posted by: swarfer 4/14/2022 10:15:43 AM (No. 1128287)
Beware anytime you read an article whose premise is telling you what really happened. Lost is the fact that Ukraine would have been spared if democratic processes had been allowed to run their course over time rather than a coup. You can’t compare 100 dead protesters during a coup versus tens of thousands of casualties, wrecked cities and war. Revolutions have consequences. The US liked the consequences, Russia did not. The simple fact is that this war was completely avoidable, no NATO, no war. An unnecessary war, that’s what really happened. There will be no winners, like Vietnam or Afghanistan which are halfway round the world while Russia and Ukraine share a border. NATO bureaucrats craving relevancy, Cold War never enders and amateur politicians posturing for the camera made any diplomatic solution impossible. Again, that’s what really happened. Facts and information tell us the how, where, when, why, but not what could have or should have happened. The Vietnam War showed the world to what lengths a nation will go to fight for perceived national security. No one seems to have learned anything, again, that’s what really happened.
7 people like this.

Reply 14 - Posted by: PESSIMIST 4/14/2022 10:34:46 AM (No. 1128304)
Two points in response to Ms. Young -- First, and most crucially -- even if I accept her framing of the issue (Ukraine yay! Putin boo!) -- what is my interest in risking American involvement in a European land war, possibly leading to a nuclear exchange? Please define precisely, without moralisms about who's right and who's wrong way over there. Eisenhower wouldn't fight for Hungary and Poland when they revolted and Soviet tanks rolled, and he was a man and President, unlike Joe Biden. Second -- I love how people blithely assert the "pro-Putin" Ukrainian president won his election by "actual" (Cathy loves that word) vote fraud, justifying permanent street turmoil against him even after his reelection, leading to his downfall. Gee, people taking the law into their own hands when they think they've been defrauded in an election -- isn't that what liberals are so upset about when they contemplate January 6?
6 people like this.

Reply 15 - Posted by: PESSIMIST 4/14/2022 10:40:40 AM (No. 1128310)
Another thought -- we have photos of a cheerful Cathy Nuland waddling around the Square and giving cookies to the Orange Revolution protestors. (How very impressive that she knows quaint Ukrainian customs!) Any photos of her handing cookies to the troops?
3 people like this.

Reply 16 - Posted by: bigfatslob 4/14/2022 10:50:12 AM (No. 1128319)
From the article, 'the clock is frozen progress is stopped'. That's correct it's 1939 Nazis vs Soviets and it never ended don't choose sides one is as evil as the other. This is a forever war with lies aplenty to listen to. Don't believe what you read these are all bad actors including Vilensky. A proxy war with Russian Soviets so we support the west but keep American troops out this is not our fight.
3 people like this.

Reply 17 - Posted by: LC Chihuahua 4/14/2022 11:17:39 AM (No. 1128357)
There was one other thing going on in 2014 that might be related to this. That was the war with the ISIS caliphate. Obama was also trying to overthrow the Assad regime in Syria which was a Russian ally. Russia had to send troops in to keep Assad in power. Can see Obama trying to influence events in Ukraine to stick it to Putin. If Obama still has influence with the Biden Bunch, he is probably using them to still stick it to Putin today. In a way, I hope the war in Ukraine ends up in a stalemate so neither side can claim victory, and everyone involved looks back and says it was a really bad idea. If the war does turn into a stalemate, wonder how long it will take before both sides decide to stop fighting. Seriously doubt that Ukraine wants to be part of a remade USSR. Also doubt the people of Ukraine want to be led by a dictator. Don't consider Zelensky a dictator, btw. He is probably corrupt, but he is no more corrupt than other leaders in places like the United States, Russia, and China.
3 people like this.

Reply 18 - Posted by: Strike3 4/14/2022 11:20:27 AM (No. 1128359)
Obama hated Putin for being a real man when he wasn't so the idea is at least plausible. He screwed up every country that he had his delicate fingers into during that time, including ours.
5 people like this.

Reply 19 - Posted by: DogFacedPonySoldier 4/14/2022 11:21:26 AM (No. 1128362)
Maybe her description of what really happened is accurate or maybe it's a constructed scenario. I don't know. When I see different, disparate international observers cited as "proof", I become doubtful. That is a common technique among academics: make up the scenario, a thesis, that you want to be true and then cherry pick quotes and references which back up the thesis. It makes good print, good reading, but it isn't authoritative.
2 people like this.

Reply 20 - Posted by: MDConservative 4/14/2022 11:23:01 AM (No. 1128367)
Just another propaganda piece. What REALLY happened is one person's account, hardly objective, more than implying that anything else is untrue. As was once suggested, read widely and think critically. There is no one ever lily-white in war or politics...that's what's REALLY happening.
2 people like this.

Reply 21 - Posted by: DogFacedPonySoldier 4/14/2022 11:28:20 AM (No. 1128371)
One more thing that the author fails to mention at all.... the role of then VP Joe Biden in the PR campaign of the coup. It was as if Nuland was TELLING Biden what to do and he agreed.
3 people like this.

Reply 22 - Posted by: DogFacedPonySoldier 4/14/2022 11:34:59 AM (No. 1128387)
Why is this account less believable than that of the Carnegie Mellon U professor? https://gregrubini.substack.com/p/massacre-ukraine-2014?s=r
0 people like this.

Reply 23 - Posted by: Geoman 4/14/2022 11:47:03 AM (No. 1128402)
I'm not well versed in the proclivities of The Bulwark but the author is also a contributing editor to Reason, whose articles are typically well-sourced. The pro-Putin faction appears to rely on their opinions as objective truth. Everyone on both sides of the argument seems to believe the media reports that confirm their bias or beliefs are Gospel vs the other side's propaganda. My own bias is rooted in the very real material support Russia provided the North Vietnamese Communists and Viet Long resulting in tens of thousands of US casualties. The US had nuclear superiority in quality and quantity of weapons but that didn't deter Russia from poking Uncle Sam, including using Russian "advisors" to assist the NVA in operating the sophisticated Russian weaponry, including radar systems, anti-aircraft artillery, MIG 21s and S-75 SAMs, directly against US forces. Nuclear weapons were held at bay; it was MAD then and it's MAD now, even if the numbers have changed.
2 people like this.

Reply 24 - Posted by: DVC 4/14/2022 12:39:38 PM (No. 1128462)
This long, detailed story fits exactly with the parts that I know from personal experience. I watched the Orange Revolution in Kievin 2004 and 5, a good bit of it happened in Independence Square (the Maidan) which is right down the hill from the hotel where we always stayed when there on business trips. I happened to see a couple of demonstrations, one far closer than intended, we rapidly hurried away a few blocks, none of them turned violent. Putin has been doing every crooked thing he could since he came to power to get control of Ukraine, which he, and many other Moscow Russians view as the "state property" of Russia, like and escaped slave. I'm sure those who love to hate on Ukraine and kiss up to the butcher Putin will dismiss this article. But, for anyone who wants to learn, this is the accurate story, although the later parts I cannot personally vouch for, I stopped going to Ukraine in 2013 and retired from that business soon after. In my experience, Putin has been always the violent KGB thug, working with his totally corrupt oligarch buddies to eliminate that weak bits of a real democracy that had sprung up in Russia before Putin took power. He has steadily subverted the wishes of the Russian's who had wanted a more representative government. And once he had total power in Russia, he set about reassembling the former Soviet states, starting with the 'escaped slaves' (escaped Slavs?) of Ukraine. Never imagine that Putin is any kind of a good guy. He is not. Ever.
2 people like this.

Reply 25 - Posted by: kono 4/14/2022 12:52:34 PM (No. 1128473)
There are so many elites in the world trying to swing public support to one side or another through spin and outright propaganda. What comes across as comprehensive and raises hopes for clarification ultimately muddies the water and sows more confusion. Most reports about the Ukraine war at this point seem to be fighting to argue more persuasively that the situation is an extension of OUR politics, thereby activating the confirmation bias of each reader, viewer, or listener.
1 person likes this.

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