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Missouri cop was badly beaten before,
shooting Michael Brown, says source

Fox News, by Hollie McKay

Original Article

Posted By:Flyright, 8/21/2014 7:03:20 AM

Darren Wilson, the Ferguson, Mo., police officer whose fatal shooting of Michael Brown touched off more than a week of demonstrations, suffered severe facial injuries, including an orbital (eye socket) fracture, and was nearly beaten unconscious by Brown moments before firing his gun, a source close to the department´s top brass told FoxNews.com. “The Assistant (Police) Chief took him to the hospital, his face all swollen on one side,” said the insider. “He was beaten very severely.” According to the well-placed source, Wilson was coming off another case in the neighborhood on Aug. 9 when he ordered Michael Brown and


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Reply 1 - Posted by: Megrits, 8/21/2014 7:17:01 AM     (No. 9974664)

Sorry, too late. The "truth" is already out there. If this is true, why hasn´t his picture with these injuries been released? Everything else about the man has been, including his name and address. Maybe because it doesn´t fit the narrative.

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Reply 2 - Posted by: planetgeo, 8/21/2014 7:18:13 AM     (No. 9974666)

This fact was both self-evident and newsworthy the day it happened, so why is it being reported only a week later? It could have significantly altered the nature and the level of reaction to the shooting if it had been given prominent reporting that same day. Why wasn´t it?

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Reply 3 - Posted by: uno, 8/21/2014 7:18:35 AM     (No. 9974668)

I´m gonna take a wild guess here and say that Lil Mikey decided to take the knock-out game to the next level and take out a White cop to be king of the hood.

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Reply 4 - Posted by: cobieone, 8/21/2014 7:21:35 AM     (No. 9974672)

Please understand, Eric Holder doesn´t care what happened to this police officer. You see, years ago, Mr Holder was pulled over by police for speeding and his car was searched. So, you can see why police using excessive force means a lot to him. I´m sure that none of you white guys have ever experienced being pulled over and your car searched. You know, white privilege. sarcasm/

Eric Holder is a disgusting human being.

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Reply 5 - Posted by: PatrickTex, 8/21/2014 7:24:17 AM     (No. 9974676)

The whole Ferguson event is precisely what the most racist administration in American history wants....they are delighted.

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Reply 6 - Posted by: jackburton, 8/21/2014 7:29:48 AM     (No. 9974683)

This is Fox News that all the libs are panting about? FTA..." touched off more than a week of demonstrations..."

Demonstrations? Looting, lawlessness, violence and threats, destruction and mayhem are now demonstrations? What´s happening in the Middle East, a soccer game?

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Reply 7 - Posted by: Pearson365, 8/21/2014 7:39:30 AM     (No. 9974693)

Who is you gonna believe? The white cop with the fractured eye socket or the Rev. Al Sharpton and the looters in the hood? Or, are ya gonna give street cred to the white police chief who drove the injured cop to the hospital or to Michael Brown´s TV daddy, Barack Obama, who has been golfin, dancin and fist bumpin on the Vine cause he cares about poor peoples like us? Finally, are you gonna believe that video of a menacing giant stealin a box of cigarillos or the LA Times report that St Michael was simply an aspiring rapper and gentle giant? Youse gotta decide, dude.

The facts about the Ferguson incident matter little. It´s the narrative that this was a racial incident, one of hundreds if not thousands occurring hourly in the US, that matters. Enough, since Thursday is the National Day of Rage to honor a thug who has just made all of our lives less safe. If ya want to buy a set of chrome wheels for your Sclade, cheap, just let me know.

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Reply 8 - Posted by: skedaddle, 8/21/2014 7:41:49 AM     (No. 9974700)

An interesting question is who is withholding the photos (remember George Zimmerman). The only reason can be that they want black on white violence escalated and blacks to continue to feel persecuted by whites. It´s time for every cop on the Ferguson police force to find another job, except for the three who meet Holder´s melanin requirements. Sick!

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Reply 9 - Posted by: country boy, 8/21/2014 7:43:12 AM     (No. 9974703)

Have to include the possibility that AG Holder and Obama have been trying to get these aspects of the case suppressed. That would account for the lateness.

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Reply 10 - Posted by: snapper451, 8/21/2014 7:43:35 AM     (No. 9974704)

Even the local news stations still report that "the innocent, unarmed team was shot by the cop as he was holding his hands up..." as they report on another night of violence. They get their news stories from the White House. This is a terrible state we are in. No one, including the Attorney General, is seeking the truth. God help us!

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Reply 11 - Posted by: Coy860, 8/21/2014 7:47:46 AM     (No. 9974712)

Don´t forget, the first pictures of Zimmerman were those that were angled in a way that hid his injuries, and NOT the accurate ones with blood all over his face and his head.
You pulled this dirty trick, msm and we aren´t going to fall for it THIS time.

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Reply 12 - Posted by: Shucky, 8/21/2014 7:49:33 AM     (No. 9974716)

Now that the physical evidence is in, rather than just testimony and conjecture, it clearly appears to have been self-defense. Police have been convicted of murder, but the injuries of Wilson and Brown prove Wilson´s story beyond any doubt.

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Reply 13 - Posted by: Former lurker, 8/21/2014 7:51:33 AM     (No. 9974717)

"I am the Attorney General but I am also a black man."
Eric Holder. 8/202014

Can anyone imagine the reaction if a person of pallor had made a similar statement about his position and his race?

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Reply 14 - Posted by: Hermoine, 8/21/2014 8:09:05 AM     (No. 9974731)

#8 -- It´s less about who is withholding the pictures but why are they withholding information. While, I agree, it would be ideal for the police force and the DA to release information to "calm the masses" the truth of the matter is the DA is actually playing this correctly (unlike in the Zimmerman case) and is withholding information so that he can be presented properly and without the taint of the media to a Grand Jury. The DA could make the lone decision to prosecute or not, instead, he´s going to send it to a grand jury -- with all the evidence -- and let them make the determination. Get ready for all hell to break loose when the grand jury comes back with a determination that this case cannot be prosecuted based on the evidence.

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Reply 15 - Posted by: TLCary, 8/21/2014 8:11:20 AM     (No. 9974733)

The hard evidence is a shocking incitement of the people who played this. From the DOJ attempting to thwart news agencies from playing the store video to the Governor sitting on this information, there has been a concerted effort to incite violence from the Black Community.
The injuries and the property damaged caused by this effort to ´rally their base´ - has left blood on their hands.
Someone white needs prosecuted, and it isn´t the officer who did his job, risked his life, and was injured in the line of duty.

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Reply 16 - Posted by: bpl40, 8/21/2014 8:13:47 AM     (No. 9974735)

A black policeman in Salt Lake City shot and killed an unarmed young white man of 20 years. There is a complete blanket of silence by the national press and the local media calls the policeman as being "not white". When Holder shows due recognition of such incidents I will have some respect for what he has to say (maybe).

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Reply 17 - Posted by: pineledger, 8/21/2014 8:22:22 AM     (No. 9974745)

That´ll happen when the perp is higher than a kite.

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Reply 18 - Posted by: GomerShabazz, 8/21/2014 8:47:42 AM     (No. 9974771)

"The pig had it coming!"
-Eric Smolder, black man, Shyster General

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Reply 19 - Posted by: Clinger, 8/21/2014 8:49:48 AM     (No. 9974775)

Clearly when Officer Wilson grabbed the little tikes´ arm to drag him into the squad car he pulled his hand into his own eye.

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Reply 20 - Posted by: rabblerouser, 8/21/2014 8:54:14 AM     (No. 9974780)

Figure it out, folks. We are being trained to accept blacks being able to get away with anything. They do what they want with no repercussions. They take what they want with no repercussions. They don´t work and we work to support them. You get beat down and you shut up and take it.

I, for one, am not going to take it. Wake up whites, latinos and asians. Blacks are posing cowards and will run crying like little girls if they are challenged. They have to fight in packs because they can´t fight one on one.

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Reply 21 - Posted by: Libertygal, 8/21/2014 9:12:22 AM     (No. 9974817)

Clearly, the officer shouldn´t have gotten out of hiscar.


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Reply 22 - Posted by: Felixcat, 8/21/2014 9:17:19 AM     (No. 9974823)

Every article and news story I´ve read/seen about the aid workers helping the black victims of Ebola in Africa have all been white; Canadians, Americans and European.

So Eric says he got yelled at by a DC cop when he was the US Attorney - odds are that the DC cop who yelled at him was black.

Eric and Co. better be careful in wanting a race war. Let them continue to burn down their own communities - just shows how ignorant "his peole" are.

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Reply 23 - Posted by: zek, 8/21/2014 9:22:23 AM     (No. 9974830)

Remember the Duke Lacrosse ordeal. Media decides the story line and facts don´t matter. By the time the facts come out it is too late. They should have put photos of the cop out right away to slow some of the rush to judgement. MSM isn´t going to go there at all if someone doesn´t push their nose in it and make them see it. MSM are not journalists, they are activists and agitators.

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Reply 24 - Posted by: bugboy, 8/21/2014 9:33:41 AM     (No. 9974849)

Its to bad for the police officer the fix is already in. He will become the fall guy to satiate the black community.

Remember we must placate them so they stop robbing and stealing their neighbors blind.

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Reply 25 - Posted by: JoElla Bee, 8/21/2014 9:36:21 AM     (No. 9974853)

FTA: “A powerful, ugly spin has completely ruined public discourse on this whole situation.”

Easier to count the news stories, since 2008, where this understatement is NOT applicable. You´d almost think it was stategy, huh? /s

Like tornadic activity in darkness, the wake of spin is ruin that can only be assessed and cleaned up after the storm when the dawning of light reveals the harsh truth of reality for all to see.

May the providence of our holy, omniscient, omnipotent God bring blessings on the innocent and peace through His righteous justice.

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Reply 26 - Posted by: LC Chihuahua, 8/21/2014 9:57:13 AM     (No. 9974891)

Some people would like to see the lawlessness in the black community spread throughout the rest of American society. After all, if the lawlessness is tolerated in the black community why shouldn´t it be tolerated elsewhere. Blacks want to see leniency in the law. Lefty politicians see votes. The rich and political elites already live apart. The truth may be suppressed, a Missouri cop may well be railroaded, and the United States becomes a much more dangerous place.

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Reply 27 - Posted by: jglas, 8/21/2014 10:02:23 AM     (No. 9974902)

A description of the gunshot wounds that came from the front and were mostly on his arms with two in his head together with a picture of the officer who fired the shots with his head stove in, early on and widely distributed would have stopped this thing dead in its tracks just as it has now that the info has been released. Given that information it is impossible to construct a scenario in which gentle Mikey obeys the officer and is then brutally executed while laying on the ground. However drug high Mikey fearing arrest for robbery making a suicidal charge on the officer and being shot down is easy to believe. Someone either made a bad mistake withholding the info or perhaps was encouraged to withhold the info by someone who wanted the stir the pot.

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Reply 28 - Posted by: Rinktum, 8/21/2014 10:06:58 AM     (No. 9974908)

Al Sharpton, the high priest of the race baiting church of color has rushed to Ferguson, Missouri to build an altar to his god of inequality which apparently requires human sacrifice now. The appropriate candidate must be a white law enforcement officer. He has built the altar and struck the match, all he needs now is the sacrifice. Nothing less will suffice. Officer Wilson will be offered up to appease those who will never be appeased. Guilt or innocence is immaterial.

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Reply 29 - Posted by: stryker714, 8/21/2014 10:12:27 AM     (No. 9974916)

The instigators will only see this sitation as a white on black killing, that he was a teen, that he was unarmed. No other shades of gray for them-it´s digital.

Commieblaster.com has an article that explains that Valerie Jarrett is orchestrating this whole charade.

The author of Injustice, about Eric Holder´s Justice Dept, was on Fox the other day and said that Holder carries some kind of decree/card in his wallet professing his alliance with black criminals.

CNN had on an attorney of a witness(ahem) this AM and they were submitting the false narrative that Brown was a victim here, was giving up, even had his hands raised, lol. So this strong arm bandit all of a sudden has a revelation that he´s going to give up, pay his debt to society and go peacefully to jail. ha ha ha ha ha. Now that´s a good one!

It is hard to fathom that Wilson won´t be charged considering the unbelievable witch hunt but it will end up just like the Zimmerman trial outcome. The racialists are about to have another epic fail, never learn. They´ll try to milk this for all it´s worth and do their best to make it stay on media coverage into November.

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Reply 30 - Posted by: dwa, 8/21/2014 10:14:58 AM     (No. 9974919)

#13, Holder lied again. In truth his statement should have been: I am a black man first, then the Attorney General and finally an American." That is the true order of his allegiance.

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Reply 31 - Posted by: starboard, 8/21/2014 11:34:36 AM     (No. 9975047)

The defense for Brown is saying how do you explain Brown being shot six times.
This is not a a difficult to explain. After Wilson had his eye socket crushed by Brown, I would think his vision, now severely impaired, was probably the main reason Wilson fired not one but several shots back to stop this bully in his tracks.

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Reply 32 - Posted by: NotaBene, 8/21/2014 11:46:34 AM     (No. 9975085)

Lawlessness is the common thread running through BHO´s regime.

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Reply 33 - Posted by: stealthy, 8/21/2014 11:48:29 AM     (No. 9975090)


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Reply 34 - Posted by: Smart11344, 8/21/2014 12:32:08 PM     (No. 9975195)

Yup, Holder is a black man, but more likely he is a Black Hole.

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Reply 35 - Posted by: nevernaught, 8/21/2014 12:57:23 PM     (No. 9975250)

What is Holder doing there, doesn´t he play golf. I thought his main job was to furnish guns to the Mexican Drug Cartel and to allow 2,000,000 criminals to invade the USA.

I´m so tired of these race hustlers that I could spit nails.

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Reply 36 - Posted by: rocco49, 8/21/2014 2:21:06 PM     (No. 9975362)

race hustlers indeed!
Obama, Holder, Sharpton, Jackson...



The rotten to the core, totally corrupt, ass-press enemedia!

We must stop these lies and fix this "news" problem we have with the evil left!

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Reply 37 - Posted by: Namma, 8/21/2014 2:55:17 PM     (No. 9975414)

someone should tell Holder that the pledge ends with "equal justice for all."
not "equal justice for mobs."

and then someone should inform Holder...that Americans have the constitutional right of the people peaceably to assemble,
we do not, however have the right to loot, throw fire bombs, and completely destroy a persons business.

This policeman was protecting his own life.
He has every right to do so.

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Reply 38 - Posted by: mc squared, 8/21/2014 3:03:24 PM     (No. 9975428)

Da troof don´t matta. Obama´s on are side.

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Reply 39 - Posted by: Rumblehog, 8/21/2014 4:41:59 PM     (No. 9975584)

I´m sure that "witnesses" will come forth for the gullible MSM claiming they saw poor Michael shot 6 times with 2 in the head before busting the cops skull wide open in an obvious act of "self-defense" before dying an urban black martyr.

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Reply 40 - Posted by: mulhaven, 8/21/2014 9:16:57 PM     (No. 9975849)

Darren Wilson should bring a lawsuit against Sharpton and Jackson for inciting violence against him, and others. Those two should be sued all over the country by the many people they have verbally assaulted and put in harm´s way. It would be great if they could be financially busted and humiliated in public.

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Reply 41 - Posted by: 4Justice, 8/22/2014 8:19:24 PM     (No. 9977120)

People are too quick to jump to conclusions on BOTH sides. I want to see pictures of this cop´s inujuries. Yesterday, everyone was making a big deal about the "fact" that the cop had a broken eye socket. Then it was debunked as being a lie. His eye socket was NOT broken. So, what is the truth? I learned a long time ago, you can´t believe the media nor the self-promoters, but you also have to beware of anything said by police departments protecting their own. Let´s find out the REAL facts first then decide.

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Reply 42 - Posted by: 4Justice, 8/22/2014 8:19:37 PM     (No. 9977121)

People are too quick to jump to conclusions on BOTH sides. I want to see pictures of this cop´s injuries. Yesterday, everyone was making a big deal about the "fact" that the cop had a broken eye socket. Then it was debunked as being a lie. His eye socket was NOT broken. So, what is the truth? I learned a long time ago, you can´t believe the media nor the self-promoters, but you also have to beware of anything said by police departments protecting their own. Let´s find out the REAL facts first then decide.

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Breitbart National Security, by Wynton Hall    Original Article
Posted By: happywarrior- 9/30/2014 7:44:05 AM     Post Reply
A new Government Accountability Institute (GAI) report reveals that President Barack Obama has attended only 42.1% of his daily intelligence briefings (known officially as the Presidential Daily Brief, or PDB) in the 2,079 days of his presidency through September 29, 2014. The GAI report also included a breakdown of Obama’s PDB attendance record between terms; he attended 42.4% of his PDBs in his first term and 41.3% in his second. The GAI’s alarming findings come on the heels of Obama’s 60 Minutes comments on Sunday, wherein the president laid the blame for the Islamic State’s (ISIS) rapid rise squarely at

White House fence-jumper made
it far deeper into building than
previously known

49 replie(s)
Washington Post, by Carol D. Leonnig    Original Article
Posted By: KarenJ1- 9/29/2014 5:02:31 PM     Post Reply
The man who jumped the White House fence this month and sprinted through the front door made it much farther into the building than previously known, overpowering one Secret Service officer and running through much of the main floor, according to three people familiar with the incident. An alarm box near the front entrance of the White House designed to alert guards to an intruder had been muted at what officers believed was a request of the usher’s office, said a Secret Service official who spoke on the condition of anonymity. The officer posted inside the front door appeared to

LA Times: ´Worst is Yet to Come´
If Ferguson Officer Not Indicted

43 replie(s)
Truth Revolt, by Bradford Thomas    Original Article
Posted By: KarenJ1- 9/29/2014 7:18:59 PM     Post Reply
The L.A. Times is warning that the “worst is yet to come” if a grand jury fails to indict white officer Darren Wilson for shooting and killing black 18-year-old Michael Brown. If the grand jury fails to indict the officer who killed Michael Brown, almost everyone here thinks things will get worse. “They’re not going to be looting next time,” said Kevin Seltzer, 30, who lives at an apartment complex near where Brown, 18, was shot. “They’re going to burn the city down.” The article highlights recent indications that the city is “far from finding peace,” including continued clashes with officers, the shooting

Cornyn to PJM: Time for ‘Arguments
Within the Family… Has Passed’ If
Conservatives Want to Win Senate

38 replie(s)
PJ Media, by Bridget Johnson    Original Article
Posted By: KarenJ1- 9/29/2014 6:49:16 PM     Post Reply
WASHINGTON — The Senate’s minority whip is confident about Republicans being the majority in the 114th Congress — if conservatives can set aside differences and work to combat the massive influx of donor cash that has Democratic campaigns ahead in the money race. Only in the majority, Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas) stresses, can conservatives make headway on tamping down overregulation, repealing and replacing Obamacare, securing the “chaotic” border, getting Keystone XL moving, and bringing civilized debate back to the upper chamber. And only by realizing the gravity of the battle for November, he argues, can Republicans relegate Harry Reid (D-Nev.)

Dallas´ Ebola case confirmed
by CDC; first diagnosis in U.S.

33 replie(s)
Dallas Morning News [TX], by Sherry Jacobson*    Original Article
Posted By: KarenJ1- 9/30/2014 4:58:09 PM     Post Reply
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention notified the media at 3:32 p.m. Tuesday that Dallas has the first diagnosed Ebola case in the nation. The federal agency scheduled a media briefing at 5:30 p.m. from its headquarters in Atlanta. Dallas County officials are expected to participate. Dallas County went through a day-long anxiety attack Tuesday, waiting to hear if the first Ebola diagnosis in the nation would happen here. An unnamed patient at Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital of Dallas was placed in isolation while awaiting test results for the dreaded virus. Apparently, the patient had traveled recently to a

Obama: The Country Is Better
Off, People Just Don’t Feel It

31 replie(s)
Washington Free Beacon, by Staff    Original Article
Posted By: Desert Fox- 9/29/2014 10:10:27 AM     Post Reply
President Obama firmly believes the United States is better off now than when he took office, even though the American people cannot “feel” it. During an interview with 60 Minutes’ Steve Kroft, Obama said, “the country is definitely better off than when I came into office.” “When I came into office, our economy was in crisis,” Obama said. The president then cited lower unemployment, private sector job growth, and deficit cuts as evidence of his administration’s success. “I can put my record against any leader around the world in terms of digging ourselves out of a terrible, almost unprecedented financial crisis,” Obama said. When

Obama has had accurate intelligence
about ISIS since BEFORE the 2012
election, says administration insider

29 replie(s)
Daily Mail (UK), by David Martosko,    Original Article
Posted By: mitzi- 9/29/2014 5:45:29 PM     Post Reply
President Barack Obama´s intelligence briefings have provided him with specific information since before he won re-election in 2012 about the growing threat of the terror group now known alternatively as ISIS and ISIL, an administration insider told MailOnline on Monday. ´Unless someone very senior has been shredding the president´s daily briefings and telling him that the dog ate them, highly accurate predictions about ISIL have been showing up in the Oval Office since before the 2012 election,´(snip) ´Any time you´re hired by a boss to advise him about what to do in a high-stakes area, and he ignores you for

Rosie O´Donnell, Whoopi Goldberg
get in shouting match in front
of ´The View´ studio audience

29 replie(s)
New York Daily News, by Don Kaplan    Original Article
Posted By: MissMolly- 9/30/2014 5:43:43 AM     Post Reply
Well, that didn’t take long. Just two weeks into the new season of “The View,” co-hosts Rosie O’Donnell and Whoopi Goldberg tore into each other during a commercial break — in front of their stunned studio audience. The spat erupted Thursday after Goldberg interrupted O’Donnell to go to a commercial break before the mother of five was finished commenting in a “Hot Topic” discussion about spanking children on the ABC gabfest. O’Donnell refuses to wear an earpiece to stay in contact with producers while the live show is airing, so she had no clue it was time to stop talking.

California becomes first
state to ban plastic bags

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Associated Press, by Fenit Nirappil    Original Article
Posted By: LittleHoodedMonk- 9/30/2014 12:51:45 PM     Post Reply
Sacramento, Calif. - Gov. Jerry Brown on Tuesday signed legislation imposing the nation's first statewide ban on single-use plastic bags, driven to action by a buildup of litter and damage to aquatic ecosystems. A national coalition of plastic bag manufacturers immediately said it would seek a voter referendum to repeal the law, which is scheduled to take effect in July 2015. Under SB270, plastic bags will be phased out of large grocery stores starting next summer and convenience stores and pharmacies in 2016. The law allows grocers to charge a fee of at least 10 cents for using paper bags. State Sen. Alex Padilla, D-Los Angeles,

The stars align for baby Charlotte
27 replie(s)
Politico, by Kendall Breitman    Original Article
Posted By: KarenJ1- 9/29/2014 2:46:41 PM     Post Reply
Leading astrologers say that Charlotte Clinton Mezvinsky is destined for a future working on social justice and will enjoy a strong relationship with her proud grandparents, Hillary and Bill. After Chelsea Clinton and Mark Mezvinsky’s daughter was born at 7:03 pm at Lenox Hill Hospital on Manhattan’s Upper East Side on Friday, POLITICO asked astrologers to weigh in on what is written in the stars for the former first daughter’s first daughter. “She may not follow her family’s politics, but she will follow the family’s activism and social justice and finding a way to serve the world, following in that

Media Ignores Obama’s 60 Minutes
Ratings Collapse – Down 69% in a Week

27 replie(s)
Gateway Pundit, by Kristinn Taylor    Original Article
Posted By: StormCnter- 9/30/2014 5:36:40 AM     Post Reply
The sympathetic news media is avoiding mentioning his name, instead they are blaming the lack of a football intro for the massive collapse in ratings Sunday night for President Barack Obama’s appearance on CBS’ 60 Minutes. Americans turned away from watching Obama even though he was being interviewed about the nation’s new war on ISIS. For example, Deadline Hollywood didn’t even mention Obama’s 60 Minutes interview when reporting on the drop in viewers. “With no football lead-in, CBS’ Sunday lineup fell from last week. As expected, the drop was steepest at 7 PM, with 60 Minutes (1.1) off by 69%

CNN´s Burnett on Chelsea Clinton
Leaving Hospital with Child: ´Sort of
Like...the Whole Kate and William Moment´

26 replie(s)
Newsbusters, by Ken Shepherd    Original Article
Posted By: JoniTx- 9/29/2014 9:38:03 PM     Post Reply
Video of Chelsea Clinton and Marc Mezvinsky leaving the hospital with their newborn daughter apparently reminds CNN anchor Erin Burnett of when the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge went before cameras outside a London hospital before taking home their newborn son Prince George last year. Burnett made the remark towards the end of her program while narrating video footage of the couple exiting a New York City hospital with Bill and Hillary Clinton just steps behind them. Of course when William and Kate left the hospital with their bundle of joy, the proud royal parents had the moment to themselves, not

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