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A rancher´s armed battle against the US
government is standard libertarian fare

Guardian [UK], by Kieran Suckling

Original Article

Posted By:MissMolly, 4/21/2014 8:10:33 AM

Perhaps the most remarkable feature of American democracy is the magnificent estate of public land that it reserved from the very beginning for the use of all citizens, rich or poor. There is nothing like it in the democracies of Europe, which came into being with nations already carved up into private fiefdoms. The Great Idea that hundreds of millions of acres of forests, deserts, rivers and prairies should be owned by, and managed for, the public interest has had a profound and lasting influence on American culture. But not everyone has accepted it. Cliven Bundy’s armed standoff with the National Park

      


Post Reply  

Reply 1 - Posted by: ruready?, 4/21/2014 8:24:43 AM     (No. 9818500)

The BLM/EPA/Enviromentalist machine illustrates the error of entrusting land to our government. Most of this land should be given back to the respective states.

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Reply 2 - Posted by: southernboy, 4/21/2014 8:28:50 AM     (No. 9818505)

FTA: “... The Great Idea that hundreds of millions of acres of forests, deserts, rivers and prairies should be owned by, and managed for, the public interest has had a profound and lasting influence on American culture….”

Check and you will find a huge blocks of land is restricted access with NO TRESPASSING signs and locked gates across access roads.

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R-VAR_AD


 
Reply 3 - Posted by: bkt23, 4/21/2014 8:58:02 AM     (No. 9818550)

The author of this article has no idea the notion of "federal land" outside territories and the District of Columbia was never intended.

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Reply 4 - Posted by: Patchy Groundfog, 4/21/2014 9:02:50 AM     (No. 9818557)

How and why do thousands of square miles fenced off by Uncle Sam with warning signs, armed guards and draconian punishments for the smallest offenses quality as a ´feature of American democracy?´

The use of all citizens? Try wandering onto federal land some time. Your use will be quickly curtailed.

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Reply 5 - Posted by: Rumblehog, 4/21/2014 9:25:39 AM     (No. 9818595)

Has anyone ever bothered to list the number of Federal "police forces" that exist, apart from the FBI? I think every single bureaucracy has at least ONE security/police force working for them, for which they buy hollow-point ammunition and sniper/fully automatic weapons. The U.S. Federal government HAS become a Police State, most just don´t realize it yet.



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Reply 6 - Posted by: Clinger, 4/21/2014 9:30:44 AM     (No. 9818604)

The author brings up historical examples of violence in connection with the larger long term dispute regarding federal lands then goes right into "Bundy´s chapter." If this and the headline "standard Libertarian fare" isn´t an attempt to connect Bundy to violence and Libertarians with lawlessness then just what is the message. Are the readers supposed to be that easy to manipulate?

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Reply 7 - Posted by: Seething Citizen, 4/21/2014 9:37:53 AM     (No. 9818615)

"Mr. Suckling" shows he knows nothing about the US and our western lands nor how the federal government has restricted them.

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Reply 8 - Posted by: StormCnter, 4/21/2014 9:52:02 AM     (No. 9818640)

Why doesn´t Mr. Bundy have a lawyer? A legal expert might have guided his arguments more effectively. The Hage family fought and prevailed, but their lawsuit was based on a different argument than any of the several Mr. Bundy picks and chooses among.

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Reply 9 - Posted by: Susannah, 4/21/2014 10:22:40 AM     (No. 9818695)

#8, it may be difficult to find a lawyer willing to mount a defense based on the client´s stated conviction that the United States government doesn´t exist.

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Reply 10 - Posted by: MDMuskrat, 4/21/2014 10:26:29 AM     (No. 9818703)

Kieran Suckling , does that name ring a warning bell? Before I even begin to read this piece, which promises to be yet-another piece of...propaganda, let me warn you.

Kieran Suckling is one of the founders of the Soros-funded Center for Biological Diversity, writing ib the Guardian...and brought to us by this prolific OP. I doubt that the article will be fair and balanced.


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Reply 11 - Posted by: toddh, 4/21/2014 10:40:55 AM     (No. 9818719)

When the governments owned all the land of Europe, the system was known as "feudalism." This idiot reporter then uses an oxymoronic "private fiefdoms" to describe the government ownership of all land and labor.

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Reply 12 - Posted by: MDMuskrat, 4/21/2014 10:43:11 AM     (No. 9818724)

Yup! Trash. Not worth reading. They would love this over at HuffPo, though.

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Reply 13 - Posted by: losgatos, 4/21/2014 10:54:01 AM     (No. 9818739)

I´ve lived in the west all my life. The author needs to explain to me how it´s in the public interest for MY public land to be open only to NPS employees and politicians.

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Reply 14 - Posted by: Southwest Cincinnatus, 4/21/2014 11:01:32 AM     (No. 9818747)

MD Muskrat is absolutely right...the aptly named "Mr. Suckling" is a Soros shill, who ran the Center for Biological Diversity from Tucson, Arizona--if memory serves.

While he celebrated finding a retired Federal Judge who was more than willing to kill the Timber Industry in AZ, turns out Mr. Suckling ran into some court trouble himself.

Like so many "redistributionists," Mr. Sucking decided to take what he thought he was entitled to from a "corporate entity..." (what you and I would call a store) and keep for himself without paying! Not only would you and I call that Shoplifting...so did the Tucson police!

I´m not certain if he beat that shoplifting rap...but it´s obvious
that he´s a "fitting spokesman" for the Radical Left.

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Reply 15 - Posted by: web, 4/21/2014 11:05:28 AM     (No. 9818756)

From an article at Range Magazine: http://www.rangemagazine.com/archives/stories/winter99/playing_outside_the_rules.htm

"Hundreds, if not thousands, of public land ranchers, loggers and miners have had their livelihoods destroyed by the ultra-effective strategies of the Southwest Center for Biological Diversity"
"They turned the lands into a commodity. We have to get public land users off this welfare system ..." Of course the land is a commodity. It is there to be used. Never mind that the people were on the land before it became "public land."

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Reply 16 - Posted by: coldborezero, 4/21/2014 11:12:36 AM     (No. 9818762)

What is the constitutional authority for the federal government to own vast swaths of land inside the borders of the several states?

I contend that the authority does not exist.


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Reply 17 - Posted by: StormCnter, 4/21/2014 11:30:35 AM     (No. 9818785)

#16, the public lands existed before those states were formed. Check out the Guadalupe-Hidalgo Treaty of 1845 which established the Rio Grande as a national border and gave the US ownership of California, and a large area comprising New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, and parts of Wyoming and Colorado. Texas alone, as a Republic, retained its lands in its annexation agreement in 1845, but surrendered its sovereignty.

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Reply 18 - Posted by: rocket-j-squirrel, 4/21/2014 11:50:17 AM     (No. 9818816)

Good point #16, but the feds picked up a huge amounts of land in the Louisiana Purchase and Seward´s Folly Alaska. Statehood came after Territories of Oklahoma, Arizona and the Dakotas. The feds always own what they buy or steal from another country (or even a state that the feds deigned to recognize as a state in the first place). With Clinton´s land grab of the Escalante Grand Staircase in Utah (?) we´ve experienced a growing itch by the feds to take back their land (and power) from the states. Limiting accessibility, limiting resource growth, and denying adequate forest management all contribute to a pervasive influence on a state and its citizens. One word I would strike from the Oxford dictionary is the word ´´pristine´´...oh, maybe two...´´endangered´´.

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Reply 19 - Posted by: Rakasha, 4/21/2014 12:03:26 PM     (No. 9818835)

I have no contract with the United States government," Bundy said. "I was paying grazing fees for management and that´s what BLM was supposed to be, land managers and they were managing my ranch out of business, so I refused to pay.


I do not recognize these lands to be federal … I am staking out my claim that the United States government does not have any jurisdiction, and any rights to the land that [I am] now grazing on.

Clearly Mr. Bundy does not believe that the United States government exists.

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Reply 20 - Posted by: StormCnter, 4/21/2014 12:26:28 PM     (No. 9818865)

Mr. Bundy has also said, according to court documents, that he is not a citizen of the United States, but only a citizen of Nevada.

Last post.

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Reply 21 - Posted by: alecto2, 4/21/2014 12:34:31 PM     (No. 9818869)

Correct #17 but only for territories? In an attempt to muddy the waters further, the feds were not averse to stealing public land by including such boilerplate in statehood documents (e.g. in Nevada´s in 1864). Apart from NV statehood being carried out without the requisite population requirement, some argue Pollard´s Lessee vs Hagan (44 U.S. 212 - 1845) makes the fed holding of public land in states, as opposed to territories, illegal:

"The United States never held any municipal sovereignty, jurisdiction, or right of soil in and to the territory of which Alabama, or any of the new States, were formed, except for temporary purposes….."



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Reply 22 - Posted by: ruready?, 4/21/2014 12:44:21 PM     (No. 9818874)

If Congress hesitates to correct this problem, a convention of the states won´t.

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Reply 23 - Posted by: belwhatter, 4/21/2014 1:11:29 PM     (No. 9818895)

Hey guys and gals relax - this is the Guardian -British equivalent of the Washington Compost - don´t waste your breath on it.

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Reply 24 - Posted by: sw penn, 4/21/2014 1:19:03 PM     (No. 9818906)

It is a feature of the European social paradises
that the national government owns all the land.
The people "rent" the right
to farm,
to build houses, businesses, or factories
in areas according to central planners land use policies.

Do you think the collection of more and more land
under the purview of the federal government
might be part of an effort to install
such a system land use control in the US?

Agenda 21 perhaps?




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Reply 25 - Posted by: Susannah, 4/21/2014 1:37:14 PM     (No. 9818931)

FYI, #19:

"I don´t recognize the U.S. government as even existing." -- Cliven Bundy, on the Dana Loesch Radio Show

www.danaloeschradio.com/the-western-war-last-remaining-rancher-vs-thefederal-govt

You can hear him make the comment right at the beginning of the interview, so you don´t have to listen to the whole thing. Perhaps he changes his mind from day to day about the existence or non-existence of the federal government.

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Reply 26 - Posted by: Rakasha, 4/21/2014 3:19:46 PM     (No. 9819024)

Oh, it´s no problem, #25, I´ve already listened to the whole thing. In fact, I would highly recommend that every one else listen to the whole thing if you haven´t already. Mr. Bundy is obviously not a terribly articulate person. As I stated on another thread, I believe - based on several other things he said, including the quotes I posted above as well as the complete radio interview - that he stumbled verbally while trying to express his position on who has jurisdiction.

But you all should decide for yourselves If Mr. Bundy is really some lunatic who doesn´t know where he is or who the government is or whether he is just being portrayed as one for other reasons.

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Reply 27 - Posted by: coldborezero, 4/21/2014 4:10:05 PM     (No. 9819071)

Many thanks for the replies; but no one answered the question: What is the CONSTITUTIONAL authority for the federal government to own vast swaths of land within the borders of the several states?

Not the treaty or the agreement or the declaration; the article, section and clause of the CONSTITUTION that grants the authority of the federal government to own land within the several states. It is not the takings clause, that was meant for military installations, post offices and such.

Enlighten me,if you can.

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Reply 28 - Posted by: Rumblehog, 4/21/2014 4:39:32 PM     (No. 9819119)

#27, I´m not sure of the Constitutionality of it, but it began when Teddy Roosevelt enacted the National Parks Act and made Yosemite the first one. Of course there were few objections at that time, but this has been taken way too far now by the land grabbing Feds.

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Reply 29 - Posted by: ColoWapiti, 4/22/2014 12:41:19 AM     (No. 9819585)

In fact, Texas gave up a great deal of land when it joined the union. Those lands are now part of Colorado, New Mexico, and Oklahoma, and maybe another state.

The data point that I heard was that the Federal Government owns approximately 85% of Nevada. The question I have is - Why?

They own a large percentage of Colorado. They have been shutting off access by vehicle to large parts of those lands since the Clinton administration. Same question - Why?

Why can´t the states own those lands? What is the critical need for the Federal Government to own those lands? Why not let Bundy purchase the land? What else does the US Government (BLM) need that land for? Nothing!

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Washington Examiner [DC], by Noemie Emery    Original Article
Posted By: StormCnter- 7/16/2014 5:15:16 AM     Post Reply
It had to come sometime, and it came in one very bad week for the Democrats: that the many big problems with Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama finally grew too great for the press to ignore. Obama in his own different way is heading towards Nixon-like levels of weirdness, as, beaten down by the failures regarding his ventures, he appears to have quit his own job. A.B. Stoddard of the Hill says in effect he has stopped being president and chooses to live in a world of his own, shutting out the problems that have become overwhelming, giving dinners where he talks

Rove American Crossroads
in Mississippi Controversy

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American Spectator, by Jeffrey Lord    Original Article
Posted By: Desert Fox- 7/16/2014 8:43:14 AM     Post Reply
The headline in the Washington Post on June 4 was clear: Rove-backed American Crossroads won’t get involved in Cochran runoff Said the Post story the day after Tea Party favorite Chris McDaniel had defeated six-term Mississippi GOP Senator Thad Cochran in the first round of the state’s GOP primary: American Crossroads, a GOP establishment organization, has decided to shift its political focus almost entirely to the general election and will not be spending money in the likely runoff election to decide the Mississippi Senate nomination that was virtually deadlocked after Tuesday night. […] “Other than Alaska, we have completed our work on Senate primaries

Exclusive - Sessions Warns All of Congress:
Obama´s New Immigration Strategy ´Threatens
Foundation of Our Constitutional Republic´

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Breitbart´s Big Government, by Matthew Boyle    Original Article
Posted By: KarenJ1- 7/15/2014 9:28:19 AM     Post Reply
Senate Budget Committee ranking member Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-AL) has warned all of his colleagues in Congress that President Barack Obama’s new immigration strategy—his plans to legalize millions of illegal alien adults through executive power—could destroy America as we know it. “I write to inform you of a development that threatens the foundation of our constitutional Republic,” Sessions, Congress’s top immigration hawk, wrote in a letter that was hand-delivered to all 535 members of Congress on Monday and provided exclusively to Breitbart News. Sessions cites a recent report from the National Journal, in which reporter Major Garrett detailed how, despite the ongoing

Eric Holder: Americans Should Not
Be ´Color Blind,´ But ´Color Brave´

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Breitbart´s Big Government, by Charlie Spiering    Original Article
Posted By: KarenJ1- 7/15/2014 1:34:47 PM     Post Reply
Attorney General Eric Holder encouraged Americans not to forget race while working for justice and equality in their country. “As it stands, our society is not yet color blind -- nor should it be -- given the disparities that still afflict and divide us.” Holder explained, “We must be color brave, and we must never forget that all are made better and more prosperous if all are given equal opportunities.” Holder made his remarks during a speech at Howard University on Tuesday for the 50th Anniversary Celebration of the Civil Rights Act. “We must take into account not only the

Behind the scenes at the
Clinton White House

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New York Post, by Geoff Earle    Original Article
Posted By: StormCnter- 7/15/2014 5:04:05 AM     Post Reply
WASHINGTON — It was an enduring image of his presidency: a chastened Bill Clinton walking his dog while wife Hillary keeps her distance as the family leaves town at the height of the Monica Lewinsky scandal — but it was all part of a contrived public-repentance campaign, according to a new book. With Bill on the skids and his wife’s future prospects on the line, it was necessary for the pubic to see the president being punished, said Weekly Standard online editor Daniel Halper in his new book, “Clinton, Inc.: The Audacious Rebuilding of a Political Machine.” “They understood that


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