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Was Kennedy murdered by
his own vice president?

Sunday Express [UK], by Staff

Original Article

Posted By:Attercliffe, 8/25/2013 5:41:54 AM

On Thursday, November 21, 1963, a wealthy Dallas businessman was throwing a party. His name was Clint Murchison and he was big in the oil business, with additional interests in banking and publishing. His influential guest list included Richard Nixon, in Dallas on business for his clients the Coca Cola Company. Oil billionaire HL Hunt was also present along with Senator John Tower, Chase Manhattan banker John McCloy and Murchison’s particular friend, FBI director J Edgar Hoover. Into the gathering strode Vice President Lyndon B Johnson, accompanied by his Dallas mistress Madeleine Brown. He had left President Kennedy and those

The above isn´t a book review, per se, it seems like more of a teaser for Who Killed The President? The Definitive Account of Fifty Years of Conspiracy by Matthew Smith. Living in New Orleans in the late sixties, I actually met Jim Garrison at a political event and Clay Shaw at a French Quarter party. It was a strange and fascinating few years until the Garrison investigation faded.


Post Reply  

Reply 1 - Posted by: sinic, 8/25/2013 6:27:38 AM     (No. 9489949)

I have always thought that, when taking everything into consideration, LBJ was by far the worst thing that ever happened to the USA. My opinion is subject to change...given the escapades of the current occupant. Carter was nothing compared to these guys.

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Reply 2 - Posted by: pc504, 8/25/2013 6:42:30 AM     (No. 9489961)

I had heard thru the years that it was Carlos Marcello the mob boss of New Orleans that ordered the hit because he was unhappy about being dumped in Guatemala. The story goes that when he got back into the country someone suggested that he wack Bobby Kennedy. His supposed reply was that would be cutting the tail off of the dog. In any event the smartest thing Johnson did was putting Earl Warren in charge. If anyone would come up with the wrong conclusion it was Earl.

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Reply 3 - Posted by: StormCnter, 8/25/2013 6:43:54 AM     (No. 9489962)

No, he wasn´t.

John Kennedy was murdered by a loner who had been rejected by almost everyone in his life, including his wife the day of the assassination. The alternate theories will never die, however, especially when there is yet another book to sell.

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Reply 4 - Posted by: Pluperfect, 8/25/2013 6:45:13 AM     (No. 9489963)

The Garrison investigation didn´t fade. It justifiably collapsed.

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Reply 5 - Posted by: PoliticalJunky, 8/25/2013 6:48:55 AM     (No. 9489966)

I agree with 1. Between Johnson thinking himself a general and running the war from DC and the Great Society, Johnson was a disaster for us. Whether he could have or would have ordered an assassination is another matter. That he was capable of it, I have no doubt but would he take the chance? I doubt it.

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Reply 6 - Posted by: tisHimself, 8/25/2013 6:57:07 AM     (No. 9489968)

That Warren report is rock solid. There´s no way Arlen Spector or any other trusted republican of his stripe would allow the fudging of results. George de Mohrenschildt? Nothing to see here.

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Reply 7 - Posted by: Foggybottom, 8/25/2013 7:15:42 AM     (No. 9489978)

At this point what does it matter?

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Reply 8 - Posted by: Standlow, 8/25/2013 7:33:53 AM     (No. 9489988)

One of LBJ´s mistresses said on The Mike Murphy radio show in Kansas City that LBJ told her the morning of Kennedy´s death that JFK would die that afternoon.

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Reply 9 - Posted by: Lawsy0, 8/25/2013 7:37:24 AM     (No. 9489991)

The Warren Commission! I´d almost forgotten that huge flap. {Say! That gives me an analogy. Obamacare is the Warren Commission Report on steroids.}

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Reply 10 - Posted by: BarryNo, 8/25/2013 7:46:58 AM     (No. 9490002)

My father was an oil company executive and this ´rumor´ was so common among the executive wives that my mother, who firmly believed it, began to talk about it openly.

I was a small child at the time, but I remember waking in thte night to go to their bedroom door because of an argument (very rare in our house because they usually got along very well).

My mother was saying, "I can´t believe you! Why are you letting this go on. That man!! The president!" That man was always LBJ, who she despised.

My dad said, "Honey, we can´t do a thing. It´s done. What do you think will happen if you keep talking about this and people start believing you? There would be riots. Do you think they´ll put up with that? And if the Russians think we can´t respond, do you think they´ll hesitate? If you don´t stop talking about this, we won´t have a family, and maybe not a country."

I didn´t understand till years later, after my dad had passed on, what they were talking about, that night.

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Reply 11 - Posted by: bugboy, 8/25/2013 7:58:49 AM     (No. 9490019)

After reading the first of Robert Caro´s books on Johnson I´m not so sure that this story isn´t true. Johnson would cut and filet anyone that got in his way.

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Reply 12 - Posted by: uno, 8/25/2013 8:03:17 AM     (No. 9490026)

Well I don´t know anything about this, but if Johnson were around today it would be pretty entertaining to watch him pick up Barry by the ears!

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Reply 13 - Posted by: globalwarmer, 8/25/2013 8:13:57 AM     (No. 9490054)

Not sure if I buy the idea that LBJ was capable of murdering the President, but I do know he essentially murdered thousands of American boys by meddling in, and generally screwing up the Viet Nam war.

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Reply 14 - Posted by: 49 Ford, 8/25/2013 8:24:18 AM     (No. 9490070)

Thank you, #3. Unfortunately, too many people cannot or will not bring themelves to accept the simple truth.

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Reply 15 - Posted by: earlybird, 8/25/2013 8:38:56 AM     (No. 9490098)

At the time many of us believed that LBJ was probably behind Kennedy´s assassination.

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Reply 16 - Posted by: david kahane, 8/25/2013 8:42:22 AM     (No. 9490102)

Short answer: no. Longer answer: hell, no.

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Reply 17 - Posted by: Judith, 8/25/2013 8:56:23 AM     (No. 9490130)

So many years later, we now have a better idea of the man and his family and realize he and his family were so bad they had an entire arena of people and groups that could have killed him, it would be hard pressed to pick one.

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Reply 18 - Posted by: enuf8, 8/25/2013 8:58:11 AM     (No. 9490134)

Listening to and watching videos of LBJ´s mistress certainly could have one easily convinced the narrative that Oswald was a full blown "patsy". Her´s was a very believable scenario. Much was withheld from the public by the Warren Commission and facts fabricated.

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Reply 19 - Posted by: Kerryman, 8/25/2013 9:07:59 AM     (No. 9490154)

Unfortunately the author didn´t disclose that not only was President Kennedy against the Vietnam Nam War, but also worried about Global Warming and Gay Marriage!

Sempervivum Fi

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Reply 20 - Posted by: StormCnter, 8/25/2013 9:16:49 AM     (No. 9490164)

#18, Lyndon Johnson didn´t have a mistress, he had scores, multitudes, legions of them over the years. I sincerely doubt any of them were privy to inside info about the happenings around the events on November 22, 1963.

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Reply 21 - Posted by: gaeditor, 8/25/2013 9:23:53 AM     (No. 9490174)

I know it was some sort of frame up, so did lots of people. My father, no wearer of tin foil hats saw Oswald shot and just stood saying over and over, "Now, that´s not right."

But just a true story: I had a good friend who watched another friend approached by a man who said (in front of her and several other witnesses -they were in a nightclub) that he "Needed help" (This was maybe two months after the assassination) and that when asked who he was, he showed ID and said "Up until this morning, I worked for the FBI." When he was asked (by the friend´s friend) why he should be helped, the man said "Because in this briefcase is information that will blow the lid off the Kennedy assassination." Why haven´t you heard about it?

Long story short -the next day the man was found a few hundred feet away, in a parking lot dead. The paper described his murder as "execution style."

My fried´s friend ran. She never saw him again. (There´s much more to that, none of it pretty.)

Last thing; I met one of the other people who was also present when this occurred. I asked him about it. I thought he was going to literally hurt me. He was furious, almost to the point of tears and screamed at the mutual friend: "You told! You told about that! Are you crazy!!"

So, #3, do I NOT believe that Oswald was anything BUT a patsy. I never will.

BTW, my friend made me and others swear we would never tell their names. And meant it. Truly meant it.

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Reply 22 - Posted by: LouD, 8/25/2013 9:38:20 AM     (No. 9490187)

Any article that says Kennedy tried, or was cutting the advisers in Vietnam should take a look at the facts. Kennedy escalated the number of armed forces there, from 900 in 1960 to 3205(1961), 11,300(1962) to 16,300 by 1963. If the article is that far wrong on facts, I wouldn´t believe any of the rest. I stand with #3!

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Reply 23 - Posted by: shamus, 8/25/2013 9:39:08 AM     (No. 9490191)

The family of Ngo Dinh Diem had JFK killed as payback for the CIA assassination perpetrated only three weeks earlier. The murdered Vietnamese president´s family used Communist ties to recruit Oswald, who had approached the Cubans and Russians in Mexico City offering his services.

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Reply 24 - Posted by: Edgelady, 8/25/2013 9:42:10 AM     (No. 9490199)

Of course LBJ had it done. He even arranged to have his sister killed. He was ruthless.

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Reply 25 - Posted by: Tanker76, 8/25/2013 10:01:33 AM     (No. 9490233)

I remember seeing a documentary on the 68 election and LBJ was asked in a press conference what he thought of Bobby, someone in his cabinet running against him, and his response was ´that is not going to be a problem much longer´ - within a short time Bobby was assassinated. Never have seen the program again and his comment chilled me at the time. LBJ was a slug, from falsifying and inflating his ´war record´ to his crooked politics to just plain incompetence, like most dim presidents we´ve had.

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Reply 26 - Posted by: Sunhan65, 8/25/2013 10:40:02 AM     (No. 9490290)

The article fails to provide context for statements it attributes to Johnson. Kennedy was in Dallas because of annoying political infighting in the local Democrat party. He expected Johnson to deal with it. Johnson had forced a difficult compromise between the two factions, enabling the President´s visit to Dallas to be a success. It was a political accomplishment that Johnson felt would prove his value to the Kennedy´s, thus they wouldn´t be laughing "after tomorrow."

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Reply 27 - Posted by: Susannah, 8/25/2013 10:41:29 AM     (No. 9490293)

This is old. Very old. Howard Zinn was pushing the idea that LBJ had JFK assassinated to his students at B.U. back in the late sixties.

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Reply 28 - Posted by: Bison65, 8/25/2013 11:14:41 AM     (No. 9490366)

Give the book, "Mortal Error"´ a read. It takes the available forensics and provides an explanation of the multiple shooter theory found no where else. Even the liberal Baltimore Sun editorial page wrote that this theory need a hard look. I think the evidence provided in the book is difficult to dismiss. In essence it says Oswald alone would have been guilty with attempted murder. The fatal shot was accidental. Far fetched. Read the book you may change your mind.

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Reply 29 - Posted by: Hazymac, 8/25/2013 11:20:30 AM     (No. 9490380)

I´m with #3 and #14 (and those who agree with them). Many people just can´t get it through their heads that only rarely does a noble Brutus kill a Caesar. Almost always it´s a miserable nonentity like Oswald who knew he´d never amount to anything unless he committed some monstrous crime such as a presidential assassination. The shots from the Texas Book Depository (250 feet) were simple for a Marine sharpshooter, especially with a scoped rifle. The shots have been repeated numerous times in tests with the exact same rifle, even by elderly shooters. The "magic bullet" evidence is hogwash, based as it is on a misunderstanding about where Gov. Connolly´s jump seat was located. (It was positioned left of where Kennedy was sitting, and was lower. The bullet travelled in a straight line.)

Marina Oswald was a Soviet citizen, and after moving to the USSR Oswald wanted to stay there. The Soviets, who quickly pegged him as an unstable character, wouldn´t have anything to do with him. LBJ and JFK were allies of political convenience, and likely had little use for each other personally, but it´s simply not believable that Johnson would have been involved in the Kennedy assassination. There was no conspiracy here--just one determined individual. And that´s all it takes.

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Reply 30 - Posted by: coyote, 8/25/2013 12:17:58 PM     (No. 9490492)


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Reply 31 - Posted by: happywarrior, 8/25/2013 12:37:38 PM     (No. 9490512)

It makes for great theater and books and actually gives some folks a reason to get up in the morning but plain and simple it was Lee, and Marina knows it too.

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Reply 32 - Posted by: grounded, 8/25/2013 12:39:34 PM     (No. 9490515)

I have few doubts that LHO was the lone shooter, but there have always been a number of intriguing competing theories out there. Read the latest Bob Lee Swagger book by Stephen Hunter for just one plausible alternative.

Now my dad, who was Texan all the way down to his toenails, firmly and unshakeably believed that LBJ had a hand in doing away with JFK until the day he died twenty years after.

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Reply 33 - Posted by: 49 Ford, 8/25/2013 12:58:44 PM     (No. 9490536)

It is also important to keep in mind how comparatively lax the security was in 1963. An open air motorcade, stopping to shake hands with people along the street - inconceivable today, but that was a different era. Modern presidents live in bubbles with carefully pre-screened audiences. It is hard to imagine any would-be malfactor getting a clear shot at a president in the 21st century.

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Reply 34 - Posted by: Blackeagle, 8/25/2013 1:05:54 PM     (No. 9490543)

I would have been comfortable with the ´lone gunman´ scenario if Jack Ruby hadn´t gotten involved.

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Reply 35 - Posted by: kanphil, 8/25/2013 1:15:01 PM     (No. 9490556)

I happen to believe, and have believed since the day of the assassination that #23 is somewhere close to the truth. If you go back and examine Mme Diem´s itinerary on and around the date, and if you know first hand vicious some Asian women can be when they feel they have been wronged, you might know what I´m talking about. Oswald may have been the lone shooter, but he had some encouragement.

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Reply 36 - Posted by: StormCnter, 8/25/2013 4:21:50 PM     (No. 9490754)

#34, Jack Ruby had his own reasons for shooting Lee Oswald. They did not know each other and had no common acquaintances. Jack Ruby was as mentally misguided as Oswald, believing if he killed Oswald, Jackie Kennedy would be spared the circus of a trial. Ruby was a true underworld character, with all kinds of mob connections and trails of corruption and sleaze, but his story is separate from Oswald´s.

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Reply 37 - Posted by: Blackeagle, 8/25/2013 4:37:05 PM     (No. 9490765)

#23 An excellent, conservative, fiction writer - Charles McCarry wrote a novel based on the Vietnam angle. ´The Tears of Autumn´

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Reply 38 - Posted by: Rumblehog, 8/25/2013 5:11:32 PM     (No. 9490796)

And then everyone who knew of, or participated in the assassination or was killed or never heard from again, but no one ever noticed. /s

It´s FAR more likely that JFK was gunned down in a Covert Op involving the KGB and Cuban hit men over all the attempts JFK and RFK made on Fidel´s life. If you believe in the saying, "What goes around, comes around," then you´ll see that´s not a far-fetched theory. It also took better marksmanship than what was possible from Oswald. I believe he was a "patsy." It also makes sense if you notice the change in the Dem Party attitude toward Cuba and Communism in general after Kennedy was murdered. Today you have to look hard to find a better friend to the Castro brothers than the Democrats.

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Reply 39 - Posted by: kennedylaw, 8/25/2013 5:39:42 PM     (No. 9490826)

Was LBJ capable of ordering a hit on JFK? Maybe.

Was he capable of pulling it off AND keeping it secret for 50 years? Nope. The idea that he could yap about it to his mistress and still manage to keep it secret is laughable.

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Reply 40 - Posted by: 49 Ford, 8/25/2013 9:46:38 PM     (No. 9491182)

#38, it is certainly true that JFK´s murder and LBJ´s ascension to power and subsequent blundering opened the doors for the radical left. But that has nothing to do with Oswald himself and the psychopathology within him which led him to kill the president.

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Reply 41 - Posted by: grundoon, 8/25/2013 11:43:04 PM     (No. 9491260)

Let´s see, who had motive, means and method?
1. Republicans: for stealing the ´60 election
2. Johnson: for stealing the ´60 nomination
3. The mob: for turning on them after they helped steal the election.
4. The Cuban freedom fighters: for abandoning them at the Bay of Pigs
5. Castro: for CIA attempts to assassinate him
6. Kruschev: for embarrassing him in the Cuban missile crisis
7. Jackie: for screwing everything that walks. (Friend Arie had the means)
8. Mrs. Diem: for having her husband whacked three weeks earlier
9. Defense contractors: for cutting defense spending
Who am I missing??? Take a number. It´s amazing it took them that long to get him.

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Kim Novak responds to post-
Oscars ridicule: ‘I was bullied.’

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Washington Post, by Soroya Nadia McDonald    Original Article
Posted By: MissMolly- 4/18/2014 5:02:40 AM     Post Reply
After presenting at the Academy Awards this year, Kim Novak didn’t want to leave her house. The Hitchcock screen siren, 81, was too humiliated to venture from her home near the Rogue River in Oregon. She read the cruel posts and Internet snark about her appearance, and it was just too much. “It got to me like it gets kids and teenagers,” she told the Associated Press. The “Vertigo” actress, considered one of the great beauties in her day, posted a note on her Facebook wall Thursday, acknowledging that she’d gotten fat injections in her face and addressing her halted

Analysis: Obama Celebrates
Eight Million ´Enrollments,´
Again Declares Debate ´Over´

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Townhall, by Guy Benson    Original Article
Posted By: KarenJ1- 4/17/2014 8:56:28 PM     Post Reply
President Obama addressed the White House press corps today, announcing that with the final numbers in, Obamacare´s exchanges have attracted eight million sign-ups -- 35 percent of whom are "under the age of 35," he said. Several elements of his comments were misleading: (1) At first blush, the 35 percent stat is both significant and impressive. As recently as last month, the share of "young invincibles" signing up for plans was struggling in the 25 percent range, far short of the actuarial target of nearly 40 percent. A leap into the mid-30´s, while still shy of the goal, would constitute a major step, and would bode well for the risk pools'

Students Demand Acknowledgement of
Robert E. Lee´s ´Racist and Dishonorable Conduct´

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Breitbart´s Big Government, by AWR Hawkins    Original Article
Posted By: Desert Fox- 4/18/2014 12:35:28 PM     Post Reply
A group of seven multiracial Washington and Lee University (W&L) students are demanding the school remove all Confederate flags from campus and "acknowledge" General Robert E. Lee´s "dishonorable side." According to the Roanoke Times, "seven multiracial students, calling themselves ´The Committee,´" have also demanded the school "acknowledge and apologize for participating in chattel slavery." They want recognition of "Martin Luther King Jr. Day on the undergraduate campus" and an end to "neo-Confederates" marching across campus "to the Lee Chapel on Lee-Jackson Day." The students say they will "engage in civil disobedience" if their demands are not met by September 1st. They added: "The

The Folly Of The Bundy Ranch Rebellion
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The Federalist, by Grace Olmstead    Original Article
Posted By: Pluperfect- 4/18/2014 4:21:46 AM     Post Reply
It’s the stuff of Westerns: a showdown on the desert plains, the big bad government against an underdog farmer. Though the story has only grabbed national headlines in the past several days, rancher Cliven Bundy has illegally grazed cattle on the Nevada land surrounding his farm for over 20 years. He hasn’t paid grazing fees since 1993, and refuses to renew the necessary grazing permit.(Snip)Rather than using the avenues and pathways presented to him, Bundy has staunchly declared his own law and allegiances. Unfortunately, reality doesn’t work this way. If only it did—we could rebel for paying stupid taxes, refuse to

Michelle Obama Riverdances
Through Dublin to the Tune
of $7,921,638

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Breitbart Big Peace, by Tom Fitton    Original Article
Posted By: JoniTx- 4/17/2014 6:45:16 AM     Post Reply
When it comes to tracking the cost of Obama family vacations, there are two primary challenges. First, the Obamas are prolific jet-setters, so there are many details to track. Second, the Obama administration, clearly embarrassed by these lavish and frequent family vacations, stonewalls the release of records at every turn. But we have been relentless in pursuit of this information. Our attorneys file the lawsuits and make our case, and our investigators pour through pages of records and crunch the numbers. And the information we’ve uncovered – information that would otherwise remain under lock and key – shows that the

Pelosi assists in Holy Week
foot-washing ritual

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San Francisco Chronicle, by Staff    Original Article
Posted By: Harlowe- 4/18/2014 11:46:54 AM     Post Reply
To "honor the dignity and work of immigrants," Democratic House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi helps Bishop Marc Andrus wash the feet of two children Thursday at Saint John the Evangelist Episcopal Church in San Francisco. Pelosi also used the occasion to talk about passing HR15 - bipartisan immigration legislation that her office says would "reduce the deficit by nearly $1 trillion, secure our borders, unite our families, protect our workers and provide an earned pathway to citizenship." The Democratic leader´s ceremony coincides with Pope Francis´ similar ceremony in Rome to mark Holy Week.

Deadbeat on the Range
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New York Times, by Timothy Eagan    Original Article
Posted By: Pluperfect- 4/18/2014 3:52:52 PM     Post Reply
Imagine a vendor on the National Mall, selling burgers and dogs, who hasn’t paid his rent in 20 years. He refuses to recognize his landlord, the National Park Service, as a legitimate authority. Every court has ruled against him, and fines have piled up. What’s more, the effluents from his food cart are having a detrimental effect on the spring grass in the capital. Would an armed posse come to his defense, aiming their guns at the park police? Would the lawbreaker get prime airtime on Fox News, breathless updates in the Drudge Report, a sympathetic ear from Tea Party Republicans?

Illinois Dems to offer $100 million in
taxpayer money to lure Obama library site

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Investor´s Business Daily, by Andrew Malcolm    Original Article
Posted By: SurferLad- 4/18/2014 9:15:50 AM     Post Reply
First, the good news: We are close enough to the end of the Obama presidency for his crowd to talk about a presidential library. Now, the bad news: Obama´s retirement is still 1,008 days distant. Plenty of time though to round up the dough to build it somewhere. Figure they need Solyndra-style money, at least $500 million. The last two presidents – Bill Clinton and George W. Bush -- built their legacy edifices totally with private money. [Snip] However, Obama supporters have a different take. They think taxpayers should put up $100 million in public money for Obama´s library.

Every Media Outlet: Hillary
Grandkid the Most Consequential
Baby Since Jesus

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Mediaite, by Tina Nguyen    Original Article
Posted By: JoniTx- 4/18/2014 10:34:40 AM     Post Reply
Less than 16 hours after Chelsea Clinton announced she was pregnant, a lot of major news outlets started staring into the crystal ball of Chelsea’s womb, wondering what this currently floating zygotic multicellular being meant for the prospects of Hillary Clinton’s 2016 campaign, which is also a floating, zygotic, multicellular being. Their answer: The immaculately conceived Clinton child could mean everything. And no, it’s not just the fact that having a grandchild could be personally fulfilling to Hillary and Bill (mazel tov, by the way), or that a cute baby would be a sweet cherry on top of Hillary’s already

Glen Campbell has been
moved into a facility

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People Magazine, by Gilliam Telling    Original Article
Posted By: Hazymac- 4/17/2014 6:58:48 PM     Post Reply
Glen Campbell has been suffering from Alzheimer´s for over three years, but the Grammy-winning singer, 78, has recently moved into a facility, PEOPLE has confirmed. "He was moved to an Alzhemier´s facility last week," says a family friend. "I´m not sure what the permanent plan is for him yet. We´ll know more next week." The "Rhinestone Cowboy" crooner first opened up about having Alzheimer´s to PEOPLE in an exclusive 2011 interview. Campbell and his fourth wife, Kim Woolen, decided to go public with the news because Campbell hoped to embark on a final farewell live tour. The couple wanted his

Even Hillary Clinton Isn’t Sure What
We Should Like About Hillary Clinton

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PJ Media, by Stephen Kruiser    Original Article
Posted By: StormCnter- 4/18/2014 4:33:53 AM     Post Reply
The first step is admitting… It was a simple question to someone accustomed to much tougher ones: What was her proudest achievement as secretary of state? But for a moment, Hillary Rodham Clinton, appearing recently before a friendly audience at a women’s forum in Manhattan, seemed flustered.(Snip)So…no definitive successes and some clear-cut failures. And that’s the generous New York Times assessment. The Democrat fantasy story about Mrs. Clinton paints her as strong and accomplished on her own. In reality, this is a woman who is professionally defined almost entirely by two men in her life, both of whom happen to have

Those ‘rogue’ agents
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New York Post, by Editorial    Original Article
Posted By: StormCnter- 4/18/2014 4:37:07 AM     Post Reply
Remember when Lois Lerner, in answering a planted question at an American Bar Association conference, admitted the IRS had targeted conservative groups but tried to pass it off as the work of rogue agents — “our line people in Cincinnati”? Today we know there were indeed federal agents involved. But they weren’t rogue, and they weren’t confined to IRS workers in Cincinnati. Thanks to a Freedom of Information request by Judicial Watch, we now have an e-mail Lerner sent to colleagues noting the Department of Justice was looking into criminal prosecutions of these tax-exempt groups. We know something else, too. These investigations

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