Oh the adrenaline high for the NYT; their smearing of Republicans, their race and homeophobic accusations that have been aimed at Republicans. Jane must be flying high and the power she weilds; it must be the feeling of being the one true God. What a coup; Charles Murray bites. The drum beat goes on.

You can call a dog a cat, but it is still a dog.

In the end, the part the Libertarians always get wrong is that it is the godless-ization of this culture that got us into this mess in the first place.

Didn´t the Bell Curve book come out way before l994?

I agree with him. I mean no disrespect to anyone but when there is no harm done to you by someone else´s actions, can´t you let choices be up to them?

When the time comes will a same sex "married" couple go through all the steps to get a "divorce"? Bet not.

deleted by Taste Police

Traditional marriage is a bedrock of civilization. Since the dawn of man, it was a societal impulse driven by the self evident need to socialize children and self regulate sexual activity. Religious trappings, which came eons later, are tangential to the institution. That Murray, a glorified statistician, would, de facto, endorse homosexuality and infanticide; shouts aloud that Murray is both unprincipled and a coward; in mortal terror of the Zeitgeist. That he echoes R establishment thinking, says volumes about the state of mind and soul of the R Party; an institution fractured beyond repair and no longer worthy of support from any one who claims to be a principled and traditional conservative.

I honestly don´t know how I feel about this. I do know Charles Murray has always made us think about things. Maybe this is something we should think about.

I am a conservative, I am a Christian, I believe homosexuality is wrong, I believe abortion is murder. I believe many people in this country are misguided non-believers. They murder, rob, rape, are homosexuals, and have abortions. They will pay for their choices, just like my favorite Christopher Hitchens is paying.

It hurts me. I love some homosexual and transgendered persons, and wish for them the best. I also pray for their souls. Until they believe, they will not change.

We cannot legislate their beliefs any more than Muslims can legislate Sharia in this country.

I guess aborting a child does no direct harm to me, but indirectly the act dehumanizes all of us.

SURE! Give up your principles for a pearl of some Gays´ price.

An open note to Mr Murray:

Muslims believe that one man can have up to four wives.

Should that be legal?

If no, then why not?

senility is hard to watch

Competence in A does not confer competence in B, in C, in D, in.... It´s that simple.

FTA: Murray, who is currently a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, is revered by many conservatives.

Yeah, well, true conservatives respect sound principles rather than "revere" people. Or is the magazine doing a sly hit there?

FTA: While [his adult children] share many of his views on limiting the size of government, and supporting free enterprise, he said, "Not one of them thought of voting for a Republican President" in the last election."

Well, no one taught them to reason carefully or examine evidence dispassionately, then.

As for his views on same-sex marriage, is the article is accurate, Murray accepted anecdotal evidence [even if from friends and acquaintances] in place of real data. That´s not sound reasoning, either.

On abortion, yet again the person who is the baby seems to be invisible. Again, shoddy thinking. But I strongly agree that abortion is a state matter, not a Federal one. And I´ll say that we ought to focus on: a. what the Feds can Constitutionally address; and b. policies to get the US "healthy" again.

Response to #4

There is no empirical evidence that this will do harm. Gay marriages are a new phenomenon. Some children of those relationships have mixed results.

How will you feel if your children or a relatives children are told by teachers than they can chose their own gender. That is happening in Oakland California. You should have seen the looks on the children´s faces; utter confusion.

I mourn for my grandchildren. They are the ones who will bear most of the burden of this godless approach to government. Libertarianism is simple selfishness. I want my way even if my way results in babies being murdered, and moral sexual depravity being justified. Woe those who call evil good and good evil.

What harm can come of this? For starters, the rest of us who think that "marriage" actually has a distinct meaning and who value that distinction, will be set up as bigots and haters. No one will be allowed to express support for the idea of traditional Christian marriage. It will become a hate crime to oppose gay "marriage."

I guess that´s a libertarian´s view tolerance.....
Ramona (the Pest)

PS, No Republican or Republican Party will get a dime of my money that supports the murder of the unborn or the abominization (new word?) of marriage. Have whatever party you want and can pay for. I will wait for a responsible adult to show up 2support. Who knows maybe Ben Carson would make a good President, someone who knows the value of human and spent a career saving it.

#16. Indeed Ramona. Very perceptive!

Somehow I don´t think Charles Murray at CPAC would have merited a mention in the New Yorker if he hadn´t endorsed one of their pet causes.

I wonder if Murray has always let his kids dictate his values. By all means; if pedophiles would be acceptable to his kids why not embrace sex with children? Why did he write books? Just ask your kids! And after all, you need their votes. If Murray´s kids have that view then I question his bonofides as a parent.

GAY MARRIAGE AND HOMOSEXUALITY IS THE SYMPTOM, not the problem. Your kid´s values are the problem.

Another pundit bites the dust?

When we stop worhipping them, the lib media won´t have anything to crow about when these gurus seem to jump ship.

Does it really make sense to have a Republican party? If they are just going to be Democrat Lite - why bother? The voters will figure out the real Democrats and kick the Republicans to the curb.
If we are a one party system, then we are a one party system.

Like Francis said: Gay marriage is an effort of the Father of Lies to destroy Marriage (and us).

I´m gonna go with the Pope Francis view of things. He´s the fresh new voice in the world, speaking the eternal truths.

Charles Murray, by contrast, in his capitulation and moral emptiness, looks like a has-been.

The farther we turn away from God, the less we should expect his blessing on our country.

Too bad that Murray doesn´t see that abortion and destruction of marriage are the driving factors in the downfall of Fishtown.

Fishtowns everywhere used to be populated by people with traditional values. Most blue-collar folks were church-going squares who would get married, have babies, and work at a respectable trade to support their families.

Now Fishtowns are filled with single mothers on welfare, shiftless men, meth addicts, child beaters, and every social ill you can think of. Why? Because the old social order of church, marriage and family was ridiculed and destroyed.

Worshipping government (or God) turns believers into elites who think they know all the answers.

One of the downstream results of the deconstruction of marriage, sex and gender (and that´s what this is) is that it will become illegal to even advocate for, or try to strengthen, real marriage.

Do you think I´m exaggerating? Not at all.

They´ve already shut down Catholic Adoption Services in IL, MA, and CA because they wouldn´t place kids in homosexual domestic arrangements.

They´ve made it a crime to counsel a minor towards normal gender identity / sexual orientation, even if both the minor and his parents have requested help in strengthening normal psychosexual development.

They´re penalizing anyone involved in a wedding, marriage, or family related business if they don´t cater to sexual deviancy.

Gender confusion in very young children is not even being recognized as a problem: it´s a desired feature, even a proud achievement of the new revolutionary gender system!

Who´s it going to hurt?

It´s getting harder and harder to find anyone it isn´t going to hurt.

You don´t believe me? Watch.

Simple solution: Marriage is a religious sacrament. Civil marriage is state establishment of religion therefore it should be unconstitutional.

Gays can marry now if they find a minister, rabbi, etc. who will marry them.

Two leading Republican Party notables get mugged by reality in the same week -- Charles Murray and Senator Rob Portman. And, let´s not forget that President Ronald Reagan and wife, Nancy, frequently had Truman Capote (famous gay author of In Cold Blood) over as a dinner guest.

I see this as a positive moment in history. I don´t remember seeing anything in the Constitution about marriage or abortion. Perhaps the Republican Party can move now towards a Constitutional government with limited, specifically enumerated powers.

The total purpose of marriage is composed of two elements; the raising of children, and the public removal of individuals from the "available" pool. There is nothing historically or ethically significant about love, sex, or economic benefits in the whole practice. If you´re not getting together to raise kids or to take yourself out of the "hey! I´m available" pool, then you´re doing the whole thing for the wrong reasons.

#30, you make good points. And that sounds like what Murray was driving at.

Murray is revered by many conservatives.

Mr. Murray may be "revered" by many conservatives, but he is just another fallible, mortal man with an opinion.

What is the moral basis for homosexuality? What is their source for determining their threshold of morality? At what point do they decide a behavior is unacceptable - wrong? Pedophilia? Bestiality? When?

Many conservatives revere God and his word more than man and man´s opinion.

“With gay marriage,” he went on, “I think the train has left the station.”

We can choose either the train "bound for glory" or the one bound for perdition. That should be an informed choice at the least. The life and future of our country and our children depends on it. Our Founders and Framers looked to God for guidance. We must do the same if we want to survive as a free republic.

Gay marriage should be acknowledged as the attack on the spiritual foundations of civilization that it is meant to be. The complementary nature of man and woman, male and female and the beneficial influences of a stable unit on the progeny that results, that really needs to be questioned?

This is a politically fueled effort of the secular world to deny the natural laws of a world not created, nor altered by human false sophistication.

If one has a right to marry one of the same gender, then why limit it? Marry your cocker spaniel, your mother, your sister, your entire family, your 67 Mustang convertible. Better still, marry yourself.
But this self referential attempt to construe the historical foundations of civilization, those moral cornerstones, ought to acknowledge in the broader sense for what it is: consistent with Marxist goals, the family is to be deconstructed so that the new moral order can be reshaped in the absence of the Creator. Good luck with that.

It is logically inefensible to give legal sanction to gay marriage and not give the same legal sanction to marriage between multiple partners - bigamy. And while we are at it, why not incest and marriage between relatives? Mother and son, father and daughter, cousins, uncles and nieces, brothers and sisters, sisters and sisters, gay or straight, monogomous or multi-partnered. One big, happy, related, "modern family." Assuming they are all adults, to quote #4 "when there is no harm done to you by someone else´s actions, can´t you let choices be up to them?"

Of course I do not advocate any of it. But can anyone look behind us say, 30 years, and truly not see the trajectory we are on?

To answer #4´s question, the problem with leaving the ordering of our civil society to the secular libertarian is that he recognizes no external moral law for regulating behavior. As a result, the secular libertarian has no more to recommend him than any other secularist. He is simply a hedonist with a sense of decorum.

Eric Metaxas eloquently addressed this issue in his CPAC speech.

I always thought Murray had a brilliant mind and I loved to hear him talk.At the same time he had some level of quirkiness about him.From what I recall he suffered one hell of a backlash from the Bell Curve. He quieted down after that and probably still feels guilty about it.Maybe this is his atonement outreach.

This whole theory about caving to leftists to peel some of their votes is ludicrous.People love this new Pope even though he´s theologically conservative. People need moral guidance whether they think so or not.

This country has become one big frat house under Obama and it´s getting worse.STD transmissions are through the roof off the counter culture´s new definition of life like "hook ups" and "friends with benefits".

Women control a society´s value system and the left has conditioned the younger ones to accept things like free range sex,bisexualism and abortion.Not to mention drinking to the verge of unconsciousness.

Republicans have to stand up for traditional America,or pack their bags or become dems.

Dick Cheney has stood up in support for gay marriage,does anybody think for a minute he´s a new left wing hero?

If Roe vs. Wade were overturned the states would have to then ban abortion. Does anyone think, that in a million years, NY or CA will ban abortion? The legal route against abortion is limited, the right should focus on decreasing it as much as possible. No one thought smoking would decrease without making cigarettes illegal, either.

The majority of the population does not think of marriage in terms of social stability. Today it´s just something you do when you like someone. The majority view is that only homophobes want to deny gays the ability to marry and get benefits and tax deductions. It is now a matter of ´fairness.´ Murry is correct in saying the train has left the station. Conservatives need an effective approach to restoring and strengthening the family and protecting religious rights. Sometimes it really is better to retreat so that you can continue to fight and eventually win, rather than being exterminated. Obviously people don´t want to hear this, but I think a long-term strategy is far superior to a flashy, but ultimately pointless kamikaze run.

#39. Always amused when anyone speaks for the majority. Demosthenes, Pericles or Burke perhaps, but hardly you. As for trains, the only one that´s left the station is ´The Common Sense Express´. That Murray, a glorified statistician, would argue, de facto for accepting homosexuality and infanticide, confirms him as an unprincipled and shallow coward, willing to sell out for votes; the same thing ladies of the evening do for cash.

I was not speaking for the majority.

Gallup - For First Time, Majority of Americans Favor Legal Gay Marriage. The date: 20 May 2011.

Something more recent, dated 13 March 2013, "Poll: Americans see gay marriage as inevitable," an article published in The Christian Century.

Is it just my imagination, or has "libertarian" become something of a bad word around here this last week or so? I am a libertarian leaning conservative. I expect to be left alone and not forced to practice your beliefs, and in return I will afford you the same courtesy.
If you want to marry someone of the same sex, I dont care. I may laugh at you and call you weird, but really its none of my business. If you want to practice polygamy, I still dont care. I might even want a deal like that myself. If that makes me selfish and hedonistic I´ll have to wear that shirt. I´ll put it on right after I get home from work, finish paying my bills and taxes, mowing my grass, fixing the house and taking care of my family.

I abhor abortion, and could make the argument that it is murder. Someone innocent is directly harmed. The law does have a legitimate place dealing with that.

The moslems are absolutely certain that their religion is right and others should be forced to adhere to their moral codes. They believe it maintains the social order, which is more important than personal liberty, after all. Sounds a little like our religious right here, doesn´t it?

We keep talking about the big tent, then we shrink it to where only those who sit in our own pews can fit in. It seems unsustainable.

After reading some of these posts I have great fear for our country because the protective arms of the Lord will not surround us if we keep sliding to the ways that bring death, abortion, homosexuality [average life span 50 years] Love of money [Madoff?][too big to fail greedy banks] This time it won´t be a worldwide flood, but a worldwide fire. The blindness of Benghazi persists in our president and I don´t expect him to protect our country from destruction.

#41. Uninterested in engaging in a urinary contest, so we´ll end it here. Polls, the fellow traveler of statistics, will give you any result your heart desires; just phrase the question accordingly. You might be interested in a new poll about to be released which has Astronomers buzzing and indicates that a majority of Americans now believe the planets are shaped liked cubes not spheres. Polls are the hand maiden of the trendy zeitgeist; traditions and principles endure.