Pope Benedict used his annual Christmas message to denounce gay marriage, saying that it destroyed the “essence of the human creature.” In one of his most important speeches of the year, the Pope stressed that a person’s gender identity is God-given and unchangeable. As a result, he sees gay marriage as a “manipulation of nature.” "People dispute the idea that they have a nature, given to them by their bodily identity, that serves as a defining element of the human being," he said at the Vatican on Friday. "They deny their nature and decide that it is not something
Comments: My Pope sends a clear message to the Faithful and smacks 0bama with a spiritual punch. Interesting message to give on Christmas.
#2 They have the same rights as everyone else, what they want is SPECIAL rights! There is nothing visionary about sodomy or trying to change the very definition of an ancient institution. This Pope is a man of vision, holiness and courage to say what he said....just because YOU don´t agree with him doesn´t mean he´s wrong.
I think gay marriage is more a manipulation of words than a manipulation of nature. Consequently, you´ve got a culture war going on that is at least as much about words as it is about homosexuality.
If anything, homosexuality in general is a reflection of nature and not a polar opposite to it. It exists right throughout the animal kingdom.
As to the Pope´s message, I think the Pope is trying to make an argument against homosexuality in general rather than gay marriage specifically. He also seems to bring gender into the discussion, the point being that the duty of the genders is to unite and procreate. Not even an ardent gay activist would deny this but my point is that it is cruel to expect a person who is exclusively oriented to the same sex to abide by behavior that goes completely against that which is normal for him or her.
A good part of the Pope´s message, which was wise beyond the world´s knowing, was that one´s sex is not something that can be made or unmade by man. I believe he is addressing the transgender issue, getting to the core of existing as a human being versus human doing.
Likewise, homosexuality is disordered precisely because it goes against the natural order as created by God.
The man is a theological genius, as well as a good and holy Pope. I wish him God´s blessing for Christmas and the New Year.
The Pope is helping the GOP destroy itself, unfortunately. There are now more Americans who think gay marriage is ok than there are Americans who agree with the Pope. Of course, if this issue is more important than the fiscal implosion headed our way, then by all means, continue spending political capital trying to stop Adam & Steve from getting hitched.
#2 & 13, religious leadership doesn´t come from reading polls. And I guarantee that the Pope is not coordinating with the GOP. Therefore his position can´t cause damage to the GOP. Also, I´d be willing to believe that the strongest supporters of gay marriage do not believe in God and therefore feel religious liberty is unimportant.
"The wrong side of history?" Oh, please, give us all a break. Warmed-over, quasi-digested and regurgitated Marxism vs. obedience to the One who created us? That does, however, present the choice fairly. Trust man, or trust God. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Sorry, #2, for being insulted by some for expressing your opinion. I am never sure why tolerance for homosexuality makes some people crazy? Homosexuality is a part of someone´s nature as much as heterosexuality is. I respect Pope Benedict but I disagree with this stance.
Denounce is a typical emotion-tugging headline word. The Pope actually said:
the Pope stressed that a person’s gender identity is God-given and unchangeable. As a result, he sees gay marriage as a “manipulation of nature.”
"People dispute the idea that they have a nature, given to them by their bodily identity, that serves as a defining element of the human being," "They deny their nature and decide that it is not something previously given to them, but that they make it for themselves."
Some people these days even refuse to label their children "boy" or "girl" so as to not "force stereotypes" on them. This is crazy.
Thank you papa. Today there is not that many brave enough to say it loud and clear. He has my prayers and of my household. This is the last stance of the Western World Christianity and the brainwashed masses can shout all they want I know w/ Whom I stand in that battle.
Well, this should certainly set them off. Wonder what MORE they can do to the Catholic church to destroy it? I´m sure we will find out shortly. As for the argument about being born a certain way? That argument can apply to a wide variety of behaviors (choices, if you will)that are not healthy for our society. And according to people that study these things, the family unit is essential to a healthy culture. Some parody of that (including ALL the ex-wives, ex-husbands, step-parents and ennumerable half-siblings, and this farce of gay marriage)is destructive. And ALL are choices.
Our Creator determines what is right and wrong, not to limit mankind, but to liberate mankind and for the betterment of mankind. This is gone on from before Adam and Eve when Satan said he will be like God. When men or women think they know better, what is right and wrong, ignoring the values and moral standard handed to us by God through scripture, they are thinking just like Satan and will fall just like Satan, individually and collectively as a culture and nation. Marriage is an institution created by God, defined by God, for mankind, who do people think they are that they can re-define it? Homosexuality is a perversion of the relationship that God reserved for marriage. It is a relationship based on lust not love. It will never be marriage. It can´t be equal with heterosexual marriage, it can´t reproduce itself. It must rely on heterosexual relationships to give them children. It destroys heterosexual marriage because it is based solely on sex (which destroys heterosexual marriages). It is destructive to humanity since it can´t reproduce (the human race would cease to exist in less the 50 years). It has been destructive to free speech because the gay movement won´t discuss the issue, they get their way by claiming the opposition is homophobic. It divides and destroys societies, because they classify people as bigots, racists, narrow minded and hateful; when they are not. It elevates the gay above heterosexuals because they believe their opinion is better and is all that matters.
When man is the arbitrator of what is right and what is wrong we live in chaos as the "absolutes" are ever changing. This thinking began in the garden with Adam and Eve and continues to this day. What seems "right" to man is not always right in the eyes of God. At this special time of the year we are reminded that God sent His son and by our faith in Him, we are made right with God; not because of anything we could ever do but by merely accepting the gift of God through faith.
BUT -- many will scream "bigot" -- soooooooo I say -- "let God sort it out"...
Someday when these people stand before their Maker -- they will be "surprised"....
The homo/sexuals are looking for approval. I´m so sick to death of it all -- blah/blah/blah.... I understand in California anyone can perform a wedding ceremony. So -- have at it -- do your dance and say the words and shut up already.
This brings up a practice of most churches in relation to the state. When a marriage occurs records are sent in to the state to register the marriage with the state. I believe this practice should be stopped the minute gay marriage becomes legal in any jurisdiction. The minister should only give the couple the address/phone # of the govt registrar and leave it up to them to fill out those papers. The Church ceremony would be recognizing the marriage in the Church community only. The state has become an unreliable partner in upholding the sanctity of marriage. Their standards for marriage, divorce, and common law relationships are all lax. Any sense of commitment is gone. All they really do is increase the taxes on the married couple. Since they do not believe marriage is anything important it is just an excuse to raise taxes on people who still uphold something important. The gays can and should go into a govt office and apply for higher taxes and leave the churches alone!
#11, you started out well with "gay marriage is more a manipulation of words" ... however you lost me with your last statement. No one who adheres to the traditional meaning of the word "marriage," including the pope, is being "cruel," nor forcing anyone to do anything.
But back to word manipulation: This is a long-time tactic of the Left --to change the very meaning of commonly understood words.
The Left accomplishes this through constant repetition in the media, and totalitarian tactics.
When we think about the Left´s attempt to change the very meaning of the word "marriage," we should remember Orwell´s Ministry of Truth: "WAR IS PEACE." "FREEDOM IS SLAVERY." "IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH." And 2 + 2 = 5, if Big Brother media and government insist it must be so.
The origins of "marriage" pre-date any organized religion. Primitive societies understood the societal values of recognizing the bond between a particular man and a particular woman. And it had nothing to do with such concepts as God, sanctity, or human nature. Rather, it was rooted in the practical need to keep peace in the tribe or village, by defining property rights.
Ooga now belong to Mok. And Ooga´s first male child now have the right to Mok´s stuff when Mok die. Anybody who messes with this gets run out of the tribe, or worse. If Mok and Jok get it on, nobody care.
The white dress, church, sanctity, and gay-marriage-envy nonsense came later.
So, exactly what is the societal value to our tribe if we say, OK, Mok and Jok can not only get it on (as they always have and nobody still care) but now also get the white dress, church-of-anyone-can-get-it-on-with-anyone-else, sort-of-sanctity, and sort-of-marriage thingy?
This non-Catholic is grateful to the Pope for standing firm on this. May it ever be so. I like the say the Catholic church describes homosexual behavior as "objectively disordered." It clearly is. Sexual attraction and sexual intercourse have an obvious biological purpose. The urge to imitate intercourse -- and that´s all they can do -- with a person of the same sex is an obvious dysfunction. The rest of society has no obligation to join in their delusions.
When I was preparing to be married in the Church I asked our priest about the marriage license etc. He said of course he would sign it but the truth is the Church doesn´t care if we are legally married or not.
Agree with the Church or not when it comes to gay marriage, this is a free country. The trouble is that the state is now imposing it´s view of acceptable religion on religious institutions and denying them their guaranteed religious liberties.
The reason this is an issue now is that it´s not so far fetched to believe that our current government would require churches to perform gay marriages. After all the state is now requiring religious institutions to go against their own beliefs and pay for medical procedures that the Church believes ends a human life.
So it´s not a shock to anyone that the Church doesn´t condone gay marriage, or divorce, or any kind of sex outside of marriage for that matter. It used be that the solution was, if you don´t believe that don´t be Catholic. With our current statist government it may not be that simple going forward.
But what an interesting thing to say! That a person´s human identity is linked to gender identity and if that you throw the second one overboard you lose the first. That is interesting! #11 many species also practice cannibalism but it also isn´t natural to ours. You have to know what you are. If you try to reform yourself into what you aren´t, you may merely break the whole vessel to pieces. We haven´t got that much authority over Nature.
While not a Catholic, I greatly appreciate the Pope´s message. He is lending eloquence to common sense, arrived at through countless generations. God´s decrees are filled with wisdom. He instructs us for our betterment - to avoid pain and sorrow.
Those who advocate same-sex marriage are short-sighted and unwise. God decreed marriage because he realized that raising children - "civilizing them" is a tremendous task, requiring countless hours of instruction, correction, reward and repetition. Without such an effort, the number of feral children increases, eventually to the point where civil society is overthrown and all are motivated by greed and the lust for power. For this reason, marriage is sanctified, and our fathers - being wiser and farther-sighted than this self-celebrating generation, sought to uplift marriage and honor it.
Marriage has declined as an honored institution. The mistakes are many - beginning with the relaxation of the grounds for divorce. ´Gay marriage´ makes a mockery of the sanctified union, and will further degrade its importance.
The number of feral offspring in the population has been continually increasing, and will reach the tipping point within a generation. A larger proportion of children experience a fragmented upbringing, lacking in the consistent application of the rules of civility. Young people I speak with bemoan the lack of civility, honesty and decency among their peers - yet advocate ´gay marriage´. They do not see the long-term consequences.
Hmmm. This is a non-issue until it drives fiscally conservative social liberals into the democrat camp. When the divorce rate gets below what, 70%, then perhaps we can start talking about the "sanctity" of marriage. This is also in large part simply a semantic argument. Those on both sides of the issue who are single issue or nearly single issue voters on this should think again, or just think.
Good for Pope Benedict. But, you know, you can only blame a defective gene pool only so much on ther gay issue in general. A political sickness has more to do with it; the old legislate for votes mentality that infected our government starting a long time ago.
This from a man who heads an organization whose clergy sexually molested and abused children for decades - the same organization which has paid out Two Billion dollars to their victims. Who heads an organization which moved these sexual predators from parish to parish as they could continue to prey upon children again and again. This man and his organization have lost the right to declare they have any moral leadership ever again on any subject.
Regarding feral offspring #39 they do bring about negative consequences for society especially when one of them is elected twice as president! As a child he was bounced all around parents come and go, mother remarries and divorces, child raised by grandparents. It has been shown children are affected by being put in day care simply because the caregiver is always changing. They can be good caregivers but since they are changing the child feels insecure. Obama has the world by the tail yet he feels insecure. Nothing can fill the void of feeling abandoned as a child. Feel sorry for him if you will but such a person should not be allowed to damage the whole nation as they work out their problems.
Honestly-held beliefs are all over this thread but with the caveat that I am not a Catholic nor do I believe the Pope´s opinions are any more valid than my own, here are my views, admittedly trying to touch all bases:
+ There is no settled science on whether or not homosexuality is genetic.
+ Consensus makes poor truth: just because the majority of people believe something is true/valid does not make it so.
+ To those who say people are born with an orientation toward the same sex, I am "oriented" toward adultery. Because it is a sin, I don´t engage in it.
+ Scripture unambiguously forbids homosexual behavior. God said it, Christians didn´t make this up.
+ God loves homosexuals. He does not love their sins and wants it stopped, just as he abjures all sinners to stop our sins.
+ Every single issue voter (abortion, gay marriage) who stays home because their candidate is iffy on the subject is a vote for the opposite side, who, when they win, further damage our cultural rot.
+ I believe that with the creeping feminization of America came an increase in open homosexuality.
+ In nature, homosexual couplings do not reproduce -- that goes against the way God made animals and people.
+ I do not believe that all homosexual relationship are based solely on sex. I have seen many loving homosexuals who have been together for decades where sex is no longer feasible. They stay for love.
+ We cannot, as a Party, continue to make this an issue. Our freedom and liberty is at stake. We´re losing the country and our positions on homosexuality are not relevant. Our positions on taxes, the Constitution and religious liberty are.
One of the requirements to marry in the Catholic Church is that the couple must be open to children and to be able to consummate (the full union of a man and woman) the marriage. Homosexuals cannot consummate a marriage; therefore, there can be no marriage between homosexuals. I have no problem with Catholic homosexuals living a committed, celibate relationship with a partner and each receiving full governmental benefits for these partnerships.
#50, I resent your personal attack on me and I completely disagree with your stating what 44 stated...that truly is LEFTIST rhetoric. Are you an ass-press writer? Sounds like it. I´m a Catholic and proud of it and I despise the attack on Christians from Obama, from the left, and now from two posters on this super site. Quit putting cockroaches in our oatmeal!
The left´s view of the Church´s moral authority total depends on the topic at hand. When the Church is in line with their worldview we get Catholics for Obama and company. When not, we get ´´no moral authority´´ based on the scandals from past years.
Can´t have it both ways. Just know that the Church has a fight on it´s hands. The lawsuits against the mandates are working their way through the system. But there´s still a whole lot about the Church the left would like to take aim at beyond forcing it to fund procedures that go against Church teaching. Male only priesthood and gay marriage are the ones they see as most within the government´s domain. Think it´s not coming?
Sorry #49 my head has not exploded and I´m far from a lefty. I happen to care about all the victims of sexual abuse that the church tried for years to silence. I don´t know do you think it was alright?????
Pope Benedict denounces gay marriage....stop wandering and stay on topic, if you can. I agree with the Pope, while you took a nasty swing at him for whatever purpose you had. That still seems "lefty" to me. But I love this site so much that I guess I´ll have to put up with sneak attacks on my Pope. God bless us all this Christmas, and especially Lucianne and staff!
#50 there are none so blind as they who will not see. Nothing lefty about telling the truth with regards to a church which allowed decades of sexual abuse to occur and who´s remedy was to move the abuser around to different parishes so they could abuse more child victims. Unless of course you´re going to tell me conservatives think sexually molestation and physical abuse of children is OK.......
Clearly there´s a lot of confusion out there about sex, gender, and even "nature". The fact that something "exists" in nature doesn´t make it good.
I´m sure there are fish that eat their own spawn, spiders that eat their own mates, and canines in heat that will fling themselves against anything furry, fuzzy or firm. That doesn´t make these behaviors norms for human behavior.
"Natural Law" from an ethical point of view is that which perfects our own nature, which promotes flourishing, physical and spiritual, for the person, the family, and the society. In this sense of the word, "using your reason" is natural even if it´s aided by a computer, while "eating a poison" is unnatural, even if it grows on trees.
"Marriage" is part of Natural Law --- whether you´re a Methodist, a Mormon, a Muslim, or a reasonable Multi-culti --- because it stabilizes relations of the procreative kind, and thus unites children with their natural father and mother.
That´s where a child gets his identity --- his sense of natural origin --- his place in an organic kinship system --- and the nurturance and providence of a man and woman who will show him how to be at home in this world with men and women.
Marriage is unique. It is organically intergenerational. And it is irreplaceable.
I dont usually post twice on a thread, but to the same poster of #44, 56 and 58...enough! We get it! You harp about your perception of sexual abuse as if you were there and know the truth, which, in reality, you probably only read the ass-press reports and believed them all...Pope Benedict denounces gay marriage and so do I. Any alteration and deviation from that sole topic here is your agenda...which souns very "progressive", not conservative, to me. Enough!
Here is the truth on the sexual abuse scandal. #1 Pope Benedict was NOT the Pope when this happened nor did he know of this. #2 the church put safeguards in place and the majority of these cases stem from before 1990. #3 the majority of victims were post pubescent boys which is pedarest not pedophilia, it was an issue with homosexual priests.#4 the % of offenders is the same as the number of molesters on the staff of Yale when you look at the total number of priest vs offenders. #5 children are more likely to be molested in the public school system where they also have moved teachers and covered it up. Those who are hung up on the sex abuse, if you put your kids in a public school you´re a huge hypocrit and have lost any moral authority to speak on this matter. The Pope is right even if he is the last man left on Earth who holds this opinion. The truth isn´t measured based on how many people agree with it!
#63. I would add that during the time most all these abuses occured society contributed to the cover-up by blaming victims causing them to be ashamed to come forward. But even then 99.8 % of Priests lived holy lives of sacrifice that most people, including me, didn´t and wouldn´t have the moral courage to live.
Re the tangential debate about Church scandals and Church authority to teach there is no doubt that the toleration of homosexual clergy has caused great scandal in the church. I am saddened by it because it does cloud the important work of the church to teach unwelcome truths. I get the impression from some posters here that they are not saddened by it but delighted to have an excuse to ignore the moral authority of the church when it suits them. For them it is a club which gives them an excuse to dismiss everything the church teaches. Clergy and christians have the duty to avoid scandal, even scandal of the simpleminded meaning something which is not really sinful but may appear to be wrong and cause some to stumble. They do not have the obligation however to avoid what is called pharisaical scandal. Our Lord himself was accused of scandalizing the pharisees who claimed not to work on the sabbath etc. They claimed to be so pure and set a much higher standard than Our Lord. If our Lord cannot avoid pharisaical scandal then neither can we nor should we try. No one can be so pure that no fault could be found by someone who is looking for a fault to avoid facing an evident truth!
#63 Cardinal Ratzinger, aka Pope Benedict, order a priest who sodomized little boys into a mental hospital rather than turning him over to the German police as required by German law. He aided and abetted a criminal and should have been brought up on charges for it. Until the catholic church "cleans" its own house it lacks any moral authority on any issue. These attacks upon catholic young have occurred in numerous countries not just the US which would suggest that there is something terrible wrong with this "church".
I´d like to know what lilywhat land Ohcrybaby is posting from which provides him such a lofty perch from which to abuse the Catholic Church. Is it Britain? France? Germany? Or the Holy American Empire, with its adorable "gay" TV sitcoms, homosexual preschool indoctrination and annual Gay Pride parades? Unless he´s posting from Uganda, he´s in no position to sneer at the Pope. The Catholic Church went wrong in the 1960s, with its naive belief that it could learn something from the up-to-date secular culture surrounding it. It didn´t realize in time that all the sentimental sighing from the "All we want..." gang was covering smoke for an infiltration of demonic agents determined to destroy God´s family. They had things their own way for over 3 decades, but the Church woke up at last, and today there´s no welcome mat for perverts in the Church. But that´s not good enough for Ohcrybaby, even though he´s happily swimming in a secular culture that´s more polluted than the Church ever was even in the darkest days of Vatican II fanaticism. He wants to destroy the Catholic Church as much as any homosexual infiltrator.
"Went wrong in the 60s" - oh please - did you conveniently forget about the Inquisition and its many victims? Or how about the church turning its back, its so called moral authority back on the Nazis? The list goes on and on with the abuses committed by this church. You all can keep drinking all the kool-aid you want it doesn´t change the fact this church and it leader have lost all moral authority for the physical abuse, sexual molestation of both girls and boys which included rape and sodomy by priests and who were aided and abetted by moving them from parish to parish rather than turning them over to the police. Before this Pope or this church can denounce anyone they need to clean their own house - plain and simple. Of course I´m sure more papists will continue to make excuses for the sexual and physical violence committed against children - its really all you can do as its all a matter of public and legal record to the offenses committed by this church and its clergy.
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Retired 68-year-old US Army general and former NATO Supreme Allied Commander Wesley K. Clark has won yet another esteemed decoration — he is dating 30-year-old Shauna Mei, the founder of online retailer AHAlife.com. Clark, who was married to Gertrude Kingston Clark for 45 years before filing for divorce last year, is spending time with the young New York-based entrepreneur, who graduated from MIT and worked at Goldman Sachs as an investment banker before launching her luxury e-commerce site. Clark and Mei were spotted together recently in the Hamptons,
National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden extended his 15 minutes of fame Wednesday, as headlines tied his saga to President Barack Obama’s decision to cancel a planned summit meeting in Moscow next month with Russian President Vladimir Putin. But analysts said the talk of Snowden’s role in the cancellation obscured a more basic reality: The U.S.-Russia relationship is now so frosty that it didn’t appear the two presidents would actually accomplish enough to merit such a high-profile meeting. After four years, the much-vaunted reset in U.S.-Russian relations has devolved into a chilly standoff over issues like the Kremlin’s support for Syria
Nanny State: If any question remained about the Obama White House´s appetite for running everyone´s life from Washington, it should be settled now. This administration even wants to dictate neighborhood makeup. Like your neighborhood? Don´t get used to it. The Obama Department of Housing and Urban Development might decide it wants to dictate changes. HUD is, according to Fox News, considering "a new rule that would allow the feds to track diversity in America´s neighborhoods and then push policies to change those it deems discriminatory." The proposed rule, disclosed last month by HUD Secretary Shaun Donovan at
In a remarkable admission that is likely to rock the Internal Revenue Service again, testimony released Thursday by House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Dave Camp reveals that an agent involved in reviewing tax exempt applications from conservative groups told a committee investigator that the agency is still targeting Tea Party groups, three months after the IRS scandal erupted.. In closed door testimony before the House Ways & Means Committee, the unidentified IRS agent said requests for special tax status from Tea Party groups is being forced into a special "secondary screening" because
“IQ is a metric of such dubiousness that almost no serious educational researcher uses it anymore,” the Guardian’s Ana Marie Cox wrote back in May. It was a breathtakingly ignorant statement. Psychologist Jelte Wicherts noted in response that a search for “IQ test” in Google’s academic database yielded more than 10,000 hits — just for the year 2013. (Snip) There is a large discrepancy between what educated laypeople believe about cognitive science and what experts actually know. Journalists are steeped in the lay wisdom, so they are repeatedly surprised when someone forthrightly discusses the real science of mental ability.
The Clintons have decided to rent a different house in the Hamptons this summer after they only received a small portion of their security deposit back from the home they rented last year. The famous Democrats have been frequent visitors to the expensive summer getaway in Long Island, and rented the same beachfront house in 2011 and 2012. [Snip] When it comes to rentals in the Hamptons, many owners use the security deposits as a way to pay for the utility fees like heat and grounds-keeping charges. It should be little surprise then that the Lily Pond Lane home
You can get a deconstruction of the media at many places. The people who visit the Treehouse want to see the entire context; The entire truth, as it presents. So here we go…. In any endeavor of corruption and misleading governance, the control of, and support by, the media, is an absolute necessity. The USSR needed Pravda to keep the ruse of governance for decades. The need of/by the U.S. government has steadily grown over the course of several progressive decades; but the urgency has increased exponentially over the past five years with the extremes
WASHINGTON—The White House announced that President Barack Obama will award the Medal of Freedom, the nation’s highest civilian award, to 16 recipients including television star and businesswoman Oprah Winfrey, legendary Washington Post editor Ben Bradlee and former President Bill Clinton. “The Presidential Medal of Freedom goes to men and women who have dedicated their own lives to enriching ours,” Mr. Obama said in a statement released by the White House. “This year’s honorees have been blessed with extraordinary talent, but what sets them apart is their gift for sharing that talent with the world.”