Where does this bumper crop of apologists come from?

From what I can see
1) Dems engage in massive voter fraud
2) Republican party is not allowed to challenge any of it

http://fellowshipofminds.wordpress.com/2012/11/15/why-the-gop-will-not-do-anything-about-vote-fraud/

Peaceful secession is the only reasonable way out, long term. The alternative has been tried, cost 600,000 lives.

Obama has declared war on the Constitution, seeking to contain and destroy our liberties, failed to protect our borders, has sent troops to foreign lands without Congressional approval, failed to pass a budged, balanced or not, forced legislation down our throats against majority consent, and favored unions and his cronies over the good of the country. What does Mr. Tobin suggest we do to rein in a president who is as expensive as he is arrogant? The man is clearly out of control, while trying to control every aspect of our lives. The last civil war was fought over slavery and states rights. This one is shaping up to be the same battle, only this time it is the government who is trying to enslave the people. Suggestions, Mr Tobin??

People have a Constitutional right to petition the government on the redress of anything.People aren´t crackpots behind these petitions,they are normal, level headed people that are watching their beloved country being destroyed by a Manchurian muslim/commie.

People are scared of the rank stupidity of people who support Obama,largely because they think a jackpot of money is coming. What good is money if there´s no structure in place to buy anything? Thurston Howell had millions but it was useless on Gilligan´s island.

Obama has borrowed $6 trillion to spread the wealth and stimulate the economy and the results have been that people are poorer and the economy is stagnate.$6 trillion is an enormous amount of money to simply vanish.

Where the money is really going is the accounts of the ruling class elites who will be in charge after transformation.Forget the fact most of the wealth is on paper and could vanish at the drop of a hat.

Obama could take over the banks by saying they´re not serving the needs of the people and are only interested in profit. Never mind that it´s his cronies that are running banking,paying themselves huge salaries and bonuses.They can´t even keep track of where their mansions,sports cars and yachts are.

There is going to be an increasing split between Blue State and Red State America. Blue States will increasingly demand a larger share of the Red State pie, for "fairness". Red States will increasingly demand that Blue States just leave them alone.

Divorce courts have long recognized the legitimacy of irreconcilable differences. There are coming to be two totally different peoples in what was once a single nation. That this also occurred in the 1860s only to have one of those groups crushed does not in itself justify or legitimize that crushing or make such a divorce itself illegitimate. -No more than it is just to force a woman to live under the thumb of a tyrant nor a husband to continue forever to pay the bills if a profligate wife.

"This is the sort of thing that can easily be dismissed as the domain of crackpots."

Yes, Crackpots like the Founding Fathers.

This is a stupid commentary. Jonathan starts with a false premise (No less a source than Abraham Lincoln can be cited to tell us that “in contemplation of universal law and of the Constitution the Union of these States is perpetual.”) and builds on it.

Free clue Jonathan: Lincoln made an assumption that is nowhere in our Constitution or our Declaration of Independence. In fact, our Declaration of Independence clearly lays out the method and the reason to leave this Union.

Mr. Tobin is characterizing secessionists as crackpots who are just cheesed off that Obama won:

The idea that the losers in a presidential election—such as southern advocates of slavery in 1860—could be justified in dissolving the union is contrary to the Constitution as well as to any sense of patriotism.

We want to secede not because we´re in a snit that we lost the Presidential election. We are majorly angry, as #2 so astutely noted, that the POTUS is out of control, is trashing the Constitution, is not playing by the rules and persists in leveling the playing field by chicanery and outright criminal actions and character assassination.

In the old days, Tobin would have been right, but things have changed too much. We now have utterly irreconcilable differences we cannot simply allow to ignore. How do you wait around for the next election when you know the Left is working around the clock again to jury-rig voting software and voting machines?

How do you play nice when this POTUS has shown no reluctance whatsoever to use the media to lie and to lie himself about everything he has done, is doing and plans to do?

No, Mr. Tobin, not this time. Secession is a movement whose time has come and calling us "crackpots" and saying we lack patriotism no longer works, just as our Representative Republic no longer works under the present stewardship.

Since Mr. To in failed his American History class, allow me to provide a brief primer.

DOI (Declaration of Independence paragraph 2, sentences 2 and 3 read: That to secure theses rights, Governments are instuted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, instituting new Government .......

Our founding was based on the idea that we, the people have a right to redress against a repressive government. Ideally, that right would be respected by agents of the government and the resolution cane be effected peacefully. However we know from experience that peaceful dissolution is usually the last recourse.

Second issue, Mr. Obama´s stated refusal to enforce existing law (voter intimidation, illegal gun running by federal agencies, defence of marriage act) and his willingness to use executive orders to evade constitutional restrictions leave law abiding citizens little choice.

I guess nobody got around to telling Mr. Tobin that the Constitution is now a bathmat, the republic a gutted shell, and we now have an imperial ruler. The great experiment has failed. We have allowed the rise of a "political class" which has manipulated us into this position through power hunger, greed, and self- aggrandizement. The final collapse is coming and it won´t be pretty. We are all about to go down with the ship. There will be few survivors once this economy crashes. I could see our ruler throwing us on the mercy of the UN. What a sight that will be. We owe it to ourselves for not having kept an active eye on the politics of our once great nation.

The idea of secession is a pipe-dream for those who don´t want to have to make hard decisions and work to achieve better results. How lovely it would be if Texas withdrew from the US and again became a sovereign nation. I agree with the loveliness of the theory. But that´s all it can be, at least in the present. Signing a secession petion is a feel-good gesture accomplishing nothing at all beyond the feeling good.

FTA "One should never throw words like treason around loosely since it has a specific definition that does not apply to offenses that fall short of “making war on the United States.”" Treason no longer exists in this country as a concept. If it was Senator Ted Kennedy would have been tried and convicted for going to the Russians and trying to destroy President Reagan´s defense of America. The overthrow of a country doesn´t have to just involve acts of violence. I guess Tobin never read the book Confederates in the Attic.

I´ve read, enjoyed and recommended "Confederates in the Attic". But it´s primarily about dreamers, sincere dedicated people, but dreamers.

It is ironic that this writer would appeal to the Constitution as a primary reason that secessionist not an option. He thereby misses a primary point. All three branches of the federal government continuously violate the Constitution and thus render secession to be a morally and intellectually viable option.

When the federal government violates the Constitution, it violates the terms of the contract between itself and the fifty states.

Tobin tips his hand in the 1st sentence.
"I rarely find myself in complete agreement with anything that comes out of the Obama administration."

I (and most readers on this Forum) can say that I almost NEVER agree with ANYTHING that this Administration has proposed or done. I say almost never only because there might be a post office naming that I don´t oppose or care about.

#11 needs to read #9. It isn´t a pipe dream, the DOI is a legal document that says We the People have the right to wipe the slate clean and start over. But unfortunately, too many people haven´t been educated in their history of the founding of this country.

I wjust having this discussion with my wife last night. Indeed, such things as secession, armed insurrection, nullification of Federal Law by the States, etc. are extreme, but they are not crazy. Radical in this country is part of our makeup, and I encourage it from both sides.

If you believe in the Constitution and our system of balanced government, these items must be on the table, no matter how extreme they may seem at some times. There has to be a healthy tension that exists between not only the three brnches of the Federal Government, but the States and the Feds, and of course, the People trump all. You may not want to take up arms against the government, but it is a remote possibility. The States may not ever secede, but it must be a tool in their arsenal. If 50% of the state legislatures recommended secession, it could be a tool to force the Federal Government to change peacably. Or it could, ultimately, mean war.

It´s gotta be on the table.

Note: only a tiny minority of people supported the Russian Revolution.

Food for thought: Does anyone believe Texas would be worse off as an independent nation?

None of this is about the Constitution, guns or secession. It is about how much they hate us. The one thing that was said during the campaign that summarizes their feelings is the "vote for revenge" comment. They have in common with Al Qaida that nothing short of our demise will do. We have no defense against that. We are traitors to their cause because we breathe.

The Southern states had every right to secede (ufortunately their desire to keep slavery really sullied their argument) - they were not destroying the union - just leaving it.

In hindisght, 150 years late, (most) everyones agrees that Lincoln, through the use of an executive order was probably justified in suspending habeas corpus, but at that time - I doubt it was so well received and what if today a President decided to suspend some Constituional guarantee of due process? hmmm - I guess we will just "have to make hard decisions and work to achieve better results."

To those who say secession, whether peaceful or not, is a pipe dream and will never happen, you just keep whistling past that graveyard.

Many good, well thought out comments.

Actually, #21, the Constitution of the Confederate States admitted that slavery would have to end. We can all agree that slavery is repugnant, but the reason Lincoln gave to engage in a war that killed 600,000 Americans was to "save the union". The "free the slaves" rationale did not appear until two years into the war.

When the Federals won the conflict, the stage was set for a government to grow and impose itself on all aspects of American life. I fear it will only get worse.

If at first you don´t secede, try, try again.

The Secession movement will continue to build, as the power of the Federal Government increases. As many of us know, there have been several bills introduced at the State level recently that call for Nullification of Federal laws that exceed the enumerated powers of the Federal Government. Besides gun-control laws, Marijuana laws passed in the most recent State elections officially nullify Federal Law.

My own belief is that we´re currently headed into a Greek-like collapse of the US dollar over the next decade or two. This will kick a larger chunk of the Red State population into the secession camp. Add to that the reaction we´re seeing from gun owners, and I´ve become hopeful again that reform might come -- and it will come from the States, not from the Feds.

Sorry for the second post, but perhaps it is noteworthy that tomorrow marks the anniversary of the Secession of Georgia (1-19-1861), and the birthday of General Robert E. Lee, and Monday is the birthday of General Thomas J. Jackson.

Decades ago, Lee-Jackson day was an official state holiday in Virginia, recognizing the birth of her two sons. Are there any other L-dotters old enough to remember Lee-Jackson day?

I certainly remember #25. Lee-Jackson Day was merged with MLK day in 1983. Quite a stretch of political correctness there!

It´s still in effect but as Lee-Jackson-King Day in Virginia.

Lincoln only wanted to keep the union together and did so by making war against his fellow Americans who only wanted to be left alone (Bashar Assad must have been taking history notes from Lincoln,

And yes, the Confederate Constitution forbad the further importation of slaves. The intent was to let slavery die a natural death and to mollify the union extremists calling for war.

The Union had to go to war for fiscal reasons. They would have lost all the warm water ports and 90% of the tariffs the government ran on not to mention the Union business interests that would suffer. The North went to war basically for money.

Three years ago I clipped a quote from an Ldot comment (sorry I didn´t save who it was or what they were commenting on) that said the following: "In essence, if the government does not follow the Constitution, then we are under no obligation to obey the federal government." At what point do we stop obeying the federal government? Is it time?

All these petitions to secede are just for making a point. A state does not request permission to secede, they just do it. Texas, having access to the Gulf and being a border state, plus an $8 billion surplus would be the perfect example to form their own Republic. They also have army and air force bases that would be the foundation for their own military. Those of us who are land-locked, like my state, wouldn´t fair so well, unless Oklahoma and Louisiana decided to go too. Hmm. That would mean Louisiana and Arkansas would have to leave the SEC and play Oklahoma and Texas. OK, I can go for that.

Picture this: Rick Perry goes on Facebook to change Texas´ status from State to Independent Republic. I like it.

The undercurrent for secession is growing daily, and those favoring it are the ones who have guns and know how to use them.

Whom do you plan to shoot? Neighbors, old friends, and relatives who might not be pro-secession?

There are no "red states" and "blue states." 41.34% of Texans voted for Obama. I´d guess they´re perfectly happy to stay in the Union. So will they be forced out of Texas at gunpoint? Shot on sight? Imprisoned?

Are you willing to kill a son, a mother, a father, a daughter of yours who doesn´t hold pro-secession views?

Maybe the question should be ´would Obama be willing to kill those who do´?

#29 asks some pertinent questions. Those are the same questions that were being asked before the Civil War, I´m sure.

The point is, at what point do citizens decide to accept the yoke of tyranny, or, fight against it? We are fast approaching this valley of decision, I fear.

Over thirty posts and no one has mentioned the major flaw in this article.

Tobin repeatedly refers to our country as a "democracy" 0bama governs as if our republic is a democracy, as if his 50% +1 vote entitles him to trample not only on our Bill of Rights, but our whole form of government. "I won" does not mean that we have to accept whatever edict 0bama decides to pronounce, bypassing both the Congress and Judicial Review.


Remember that famous Franklin quote, when a woman asked ´what kind of government have you given us?´ Ben answered, "A republic, if you can keep it."

A democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding who is for dinner, in a republic the minority retains civil rights, no matter how ´small´ the minority is compared to the majority, our republic has three equal branches of government, not a monarch.

I have news for you #29. I suggest you learn to read. I did not say one thing about shooting anyone.

IMO the issue of secession is not answered by the Constitution.

The 10th Amendment seems the most applicable:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

And it seems to allow separation. Arguing about the meaning of the word "union" is, to me not important. A union can be ended and to say otherwise seems clever but mistaken.

I think the South could have politically achieved a peaceful secession had it been patient. But to be blunt, the Southern leaders went bonkers about the election of Lincoln. And after that there was no reasoning with them.